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Joined: Jul 2003
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because you said my tuner has forgotten more than most of us know. That presumes to say you know everything he knows...in order to make that statement. I thinks its clear as mud. Asking questions on a forum is one thing...statements are quite another.
Richard, the"Piano Guy" Piano Moving Tuning & Repair From London ON to Fort Erie ON
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Oh boy. She's "piqued" again.
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"we think the wild card may be the unisons, that the choices an aural tuner would make for tuning the unisons might be different than the ones the machine would make.
there is more to tuning unisons, for the aural tuner who tuned my piano, than making them beatless.BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!! hold it... I can't....can't...wheeze..puff... can't catch my breath...... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! this is my last post in this forum.No! No! Keep posting! I'm writing a book, and need this kind of material. It's a comedy, for the tech trade. I'm gonna call it... "That'll Make You Go Blind, and other things customers have told me"......... Whooo.... I gotta go pee....... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!! .....Hey, I know! Load it up in a truck and haul it to Arizona and let that guy who wrote the book on voicing do the unisons. Surely if he wrote the book on voicing, he wrote the book on unisons too!... BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAa!!
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Hey Larry,
Your slip is showing! Honestly... do a little research, maybe work on something better than a Wurli console and get back to us. Still using outdated technology to tune?
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Maybe she should load it up in a truck and haul it to *you* to get her unisons tuned. Apparently you have numerous ways to tune unisons. Surely between the two of you, with the help of a machine, you can figure it out.
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Rontuner, why do you say that to Larry? I don't understand. Please explain. Obviously Larry is laughing at Piqué, which isn't very nice but she's been making statements that are kinda weird wouldn't you say? Paulo
independent tuner/tech
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Hi Paulo,
What is the _width_ of a beatless unison? That is, using the best machines available, what is the measurable difference between the three strings of a unison? It's not zero, so how much is it, why isn't it zero, and how do the best aural tuners get it there? These are questions that can lead you beyond where you are now.
I admit, that in reality, most clients can't tell the difference between a good tuning and a great tuning. Heck, some clients can't tell the difference between a piano that is tuned, and one that hasn't been tuned in years.
But... there are those clients that have ears to rival the best tuners around. And, they most likely approach the tuning with a musical ear, rather than a "temperament-beat-counting ear. A tech can either dismiss them, explain away their concerns, or roll up the sleeves and go looking for what is being percieved by the (paying) client.
I don't know Pique, or her piano, but I don't see her "quest", or any of the information as weird at all. Not the standard line, but not unknown in the industry.
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Rontuner, "These are questions that can lead you beyond where you are now." Geez, thanks for the vote of confidence. Unisons should be beatless right? I'm an aural tuner by the way and my goal is to please the human MUSICAL ear, not some mathematician. I still don't get it. What's your point?
independent tuner/tech
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Well....
Try this: unisons should please the human MUSICAL ear. The machine is only there as a measuring device after the unison is set. What makes for the most musical unison? No, you shouldn't be able to hear a beat, but in the best instruments, there is some width to the unison before a beat is perceived. That is the place where this fine manipulation takes place. Could be you are already doing this - not just making them beatless, but instead finding the "best" unison.
The point is that there isn't just one location for the three strings that renders them beatless. Does it matter to everyone to find the absolute most musical place for those three strings to be? Of course not. But for some, nothing less comes close.
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I agree completetly. I guess Piqué would have to measure all three strings individually for all notes. Can't be much fun for the tuner to replicate the original tuning. I would even go as far as saying that with fluctuating conditions the measured tuning would probably not "measure" up. No pun intended. The point is to make unisons beatless to the human ear. (Wether they are in reality or not is irelevant)If Piqué wants to make experiments, that's fine by me. I just wouldn't want to be the tuner to replicate the original tuning, I would just tell her to try mine or phone the other guy. Paulo
independent tuner/tech
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Ron: You have my interest. Having a dead on unison tends to have a "dry sound"?? But musically I like it "wet", still no perceived beats, and no whine. Similar sounding I guess to playing an electric guitar with no effects and no reverb. Then adding a hint of reverb. Or perhaps the sound of singing in a school bathroom with hard floors and walls. It adds a dimension or "wetness". Are we on the same page??
Richard, the"Piano Guy" Piano Moving Tuning & Repair From London ON to Fort Erie ON
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Tough when words fail, isn't it? I don't really know how to characterize it, other than seeking the "best" sound. Wearing earplugs, and cruising through with the Verituner helps keep my ears fresh for doing this on the final pass, when the instrument is up to it. I don't waste my time on the Baldwin verticals here at school - trying to work withing the unisons, that is. There is the SF10 on stage, however...
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Originally posted by Piano Guy: ...But musically I like it "wet", still no perceived beats, and no whine... There's a word in there that I understand--"whine". I've heard tunings on some high-quality pianos done by some of the best in the business (who shall remain nameless as they read and post here at PW) and what I've heard I did not like in some of their tunings was a "whine". It strikes me as a sound I associate with old antique pianos that perhaps don't hold a tuning as well as they ought. But I can only guess the tuning satisfies their ears and is intentional. But that "whine" drives me nuts. I like my unisons clean and as powerful as they can be with what I perceive as uniform rate of decay in the sustain. If there's any "wetness" to the tuning, I want it in the intervals, not in the unisons. In the unisons, it too quickly becomes that whine I can't stand, as annoying as my cat in a bad mood meowing.
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Chick Do you mean the "whine" is there when they are finished the tuning, or down the road a few months?? Do to the very nature of the beast some of the unisons can drift from solid to "whine" as time goes on. Humidity etc etc etc...string stretch....., and so on and so forth. I hear it taught at PTG seminars and such that tuning is all about unisons. If you cant tune them, temperment and Octaves wont mean a thing.
Richard, the"Piano Guy" Piano Moving Tuning & Repair From London ON to Fort Erie ON
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Originally posted by Piano Guy: Do you mean the "whine" is there when they are finished the tuning, or down the road a few months?? Sounds like the same whine as one that's drifted a few months, but I've heard it on *freshly* "tuned" pianos leaving me wondering why bother tuning at all.
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[/qb][/QUOTE]Sounds like the same whine as one that's drifted a few months, but I've heard it on *freshly* "tuned" pianos leaving me wondering why bother tuning at all. [/QB][/QUOTE] In the tuning world unisons are hardest to perfect and the ones most chase for a life time to improve.
Richard, the"Piano Guy" Piano Moving Tuning & Repair From London ON to Fort Erie ON
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How do you get your post to contain quotes...like Chickgrand and others above. I hit the quote icon, but it sure looks differant...Help me out can you ??
Richard, the"Piano Guy" Piano Moving Tuning & Repair From London ON to Fort Erie ON
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Those bracketed UBB modifiers like [Quote] and [QB] are paired as bookends around text. The first one that begins an effect has no slash mark. The second one that ends the effect has the slash mark in front of the modifier. So if you edited those slashes out of the opening one, your quote would appear correctly. Any time they are not paired correctly, you end up with them showing like those above instead of just evoking their function. If you're quoting someone that also had a nested quote, you may end up just like you did above if you edit out the wrong pair at the beginning or end, but if you choose to keep the first pair without the slashes and make sure there are no straggling ones in between until you get to the closing ones with the slash, it works fine.
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How do you get your post to contain quotes...like Chickgrand and others above. I hit the quote icon, but it sure looks differant...Help me out can you ?? HTML code starts [whatever] and ends with [/whatever]. There are some bugs in this system. If I press the QUOTE button, it writes the code, but I have to place the insertion point between the start and end of the code. The proper code for quoting starts with [quote]. You don't need and technically shouldn't use upper case.
Semipro Tech
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Originally posted by ChickGrand: Those bracketed UBB modifiers like [Quote] and [QB] are paired as bookends around text. The first one that begins an effect has no slash mark. The second one that ends the effect has the slash mark in front of the modifier. So if you edited those slashes out of the opening one, your quote would appear correctly. Any time they are not paired correctly, you end up with them showing like those above instead of just evoking their function. If you're quoting someone that also had a nested quote, you may end up just like you did above if you edit out the wrong pair at the beginning or end, but if you choose to keep the first pair without the slashes and make sure there are no straggling ones in between until you get to the closing ones with the slash, it works fine. Test 1,2,3
Richard, the"Piano Guy" Piano Moving Tuning & Repair From London ON to Fort Erie ON
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
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