Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Do you tune by ear or machine?

Just wondering how many out there tune by ear or machine? How many do both? How many of you switched from aural to electronic? Why did you switch?

I have always tuned by ear, however there are times when I wish I had a machine.

Bob, I tune by ear. I too sometimes wish I had one of the newer ETD's. Years ago I had a Sanderson Accu-tuner, but seldom used it.

I hope this thread does not lead to the the ever raging debate of which is best: aural or machine. I know excellent tuners who do it both ways.

Regards,
Ron

I tune by ear. I've looked at ETDs and they have always been so much more clumsy than tuning by ear that I have never had any desire for one.

I can tune by ear. I have passed the PTG test jsut one point below CTE level. I use the Rayburn CyberTuner of PodketPC for all pitch raises and some tunings. I use the Sanderson
SAT 111 for the rest. Most of the time I set the sequence up exactly as if I were tuning by ear. I could go out every day and tune 4 pianos per day by ear, but during the time I save by using an ETD, I can spend time doing touch up regulation or voicing at no charge to the customer and deliver a much more professional and inclusive service than any aural only tech that I have ever followed behind.... :t: oh, and by the way , I have tuned over 30,000 pianos.

Thomas, sorry but I can't resist. I'm sure you are an excellent piano tech, providing the highest caliber of professional service. 30,000 pianos says you possess the highest credentials.
But I take issue with your point about following behind any aural only tech. I take as much pride in my ability to tune a piano to very very high standards, as much as you take pride in your professionalism. I do not have one thing against the guys who use a machine. It always amazes me that 8 out of 10 pianos techs I know honestly believes they are the only one who truly knows how to properly tune a piano. And 5 or 6 out of 10 wouldn't know a concert quality piano tuning if they heard one. I am in no way implying you or any other tech who posts here, are one of these 5 or 6 out of 10. But why must we bicker and slam each other over this issue. I get steamed enough fixing other people's sloppy work, some who tune aural, others who use a machine.

Again, please do not construe my comments as negative toward you or method of tuning.

Regards,
Ron

Rjalax said ""But I take issue with your point about following behind any aural only tech. I take as much pride in my ability to tune a piano to very very high standards, as much as you take pride in your professionalism.""

I said ""I could go out every day and tune 4 pianos per day by ear, but during the time I save by using an ETD, I can spend time doing touch up regulation or voicing at no charge to the customer and deliver a much more professional and inclusive service than any aural only tech that I have ever "" So I never said I could tune better than you , I said I had plenty of time left over to do minor regulation and voicing that EVERY other Aural Tech I have followed did NOT do. :t:

Tom - How much time on average does an ETD save you?

I'm a "hybrid" tuner, using both the Verituner as well as my hearing to do the job. And while I can do a strictly aural tuning, my preference is to always use the Verituner(which I use to determine pitch for the first string in unisons).

Mark Mandell

Bob wrote""Tom - How much time on average does an ETD save you?""

Just tuning I can service a piano in about 35-40 minutes. That leaves me 20-35 minutes to clean, or voice, or touch up the regulation

Tom Wrote "Just tuning I can service a piano in about 35-40 minutes"

The ETD time savings is an advantage for Tom. For my tuning fee, a customer gets about 1 hour 20 min of my time. An easy to tune piano, close to pitch takes me about 50 min by ear. A pitch raise/tune (as most are) takes about an hour. A piano with strings that hang up takes longer.

I use the balance of time to vac the dust, fix and adjust what I can.

I wouldn't mind a SMALL, COMPACT, CHEAP ETD that sets a good quick temperment, especially for spinets or school tunings.

I don't think that I could get a string properly set in less than 10 seconds from the time I take the hammer off one pin to the time to take it off the one I am tuning. I might allot 35 minutes for a piano that I've tuned the day before, or that I know has been kept under good conditions, but I'm not going to do it for a piano that I haven't seen for quite some time.

I agree with BDB's statement that I do not believe I can get a string stablized in less than 10 second from the time I take the hammer fom one pin to the next. On a piano maintained under good conditions that I have tuned before, I can do the tuning in about 50 minutes. On one that needs a pitch raise or one that I have not tuned before I usually take about and hour and 15 to an hour and 30 minutes. But within this time frame I adjust the regulation if needed and needle hammers (especially at the break points) if needed. As a matter of practice, I will also vac or do minor cleaning after I tune the piano. I usually return quiet to the home within an hour to an hour and a half.
I am not interested in "production line" tuning, so I tend not to schedule more than 4 pianos a day. This way I can give complete attention to the piano, always be on time (of utmost importance) and give the customer the highest quality tuning/service.

I give up you can have the last word, I dont want it

When I tune by ear, I tune the interval, then use my key banger (a bass hammer glued to the end of a dowel rod) to smack the key very hard. This usually sets the string to a place I don't want, and the process is repeated two or three times till the string and pin are set, and a heavy blow doesn't change the string.

With an ETD, the heavy blow can be done right from the start, without playing an interval, which means a time savings of several seconds on each string. I would assume this is where Thomas makes up some time. Temperment setting with an ETD is probably done within one min. By ear, a temperment sometimes takes me 5 mim. A two octave concert temperment might take 15 min. This would be another ETD time savings.

I don't understand how setting the string by ear is different than with an ETD. If the string doesn't stay where you want it by ear, how come it will with an ETD? For that matter, I can't understand how you can "tune" an interval when the string isn't set. To me, a string is tuned when it is set at the proper pitch.

For that matter, I don't understand how anyone could ever do other than concert quality tuning. This point was driven home to me many years ago when I was tuning a piano for the wife of one of my college professors. When I finished, she told me she was glad I could come, because her cousin was coming to play with the symphony that week. Actually, it was both Claude Frank and Lillian Kallir playing together.

Most of my customers wait too long between tunings, therefore a "concert quality" tuning can not be achieved in one sitting even with a pitch raise. The piano simply isn't stable enough. It might sound good when you leave, but it won't always be stable. The pitch of the average school piano in Chicago changes 50-100 cents winter to summer - again not possible to do a "concert quality" tuning in one sitting. In September I have to lower the pitch 50 cents. By January, I raise the pitch 50 cents. Is it frustrating?? You bet, but thats how it is.

For a "concert quality" tuning in Chicago, it requires pitch raising or lowering and tuning two days before, then a second tuning the day of the concert. Even then, the tuning holds for the concert only. Pianos might be more stable in Oakland -I suspect the humidity is a bit more constant.

BDB wrote: I don't understand how setting the string by ear is different than with an ETD.

Please re-read my previouse post - time savings are by not playing as many notes while tuning.

I use the SAT-III.
I think what Bob was implying by an ETD speading-up the "string setting" is because not only does your ear locate the problems, but your eyes also can now play a part in observing string movement.

I seem never to spend less than 1 hour for a tuning (ranging from 60-90 minutes) and another 25 for a PR. I tend to only schedule 1-2 pianos per day and reserve 1-2 hours a-peice for regulation and voicing. This to me, is much more rewarding then 4-5 tunings.

repair...rebuild...etc...for my is very import, and I very happy when I listen, when I look..the piano for my repair..for my tunning...¡..then I am a piano technician...I tunned by ear only...but I am I piano tunner too...I think the piano technician is other profession, very different to the piano tunner...¡¡¡or no?

I simply cannot believe that a piano will vary by an entire semitone due to humidity. It is far more likely that the calibration of an ETD would be off. I have tuned relatives' piano on the East Coast, and they haven't gone out that much, even with a year or two and a change of seasons between tunings.

The last time I tuned four pianos in a day, I could barely move for a couple of days afterwards. Three is my limit.

BDB said: "I simply cannot believe that a piano will vary by an entire semitone due to humidity"

Our humidity in Chicago changes more than on either coast of the USA. Some years are worse than others, depending on the weather. Some pianos, especially school pianos will be 50 cents sharp in late August due to high humidity and lack of summer air conditioning and 50 cents flat in February due to low humidity, and steam radiator overheating. At one college, the grand pianos have 3/16" soundboard cracks in winter. These close up in summer. A hot, sticky summer followed by a very cold winter is the culprit.