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I was thinking of going to water based finishes for pianos. I would like to hear feedback from users on results obtained, recommended brands, etc.

Have used Enduro Poly now made by General Finishes with good results.
(There is a new water based finish that I have seen that will not develop layering but I do not have the name right now - maybe Dale Fox will chime in and tell you.)
Learning how to use it was not too difficult. The solids content is very high so it builds fast. Not good to use it below 50 deg f nor on too hot of a day.
It was made to be used with HVLP and I have the conversion type gun - real HVLP is better for application in my opinion.
It can be sprayed on just about any finish except oil.
Applying it can be done all in one go - build layer, wait till it tacks and repeat until you have all that you want/need. Or a layer at a time, let it set up, sand and repeat. When doing it the latter way you need to sand at about 180 to give additional layer something to adhere to because there is no solvent effect.
If you sand through a layer it will show.
It rubs out very easily to any gloss you like.
I have only used the clear, at one time they had black but I think that it is discontinued.

I used the water based finish for a few years, before I got out of the refinishing end of things. I was using the Enduro Poly that Gene talks about. It was called Wat-R-Base at the time (7-8 years ago). I had read an article in Fine Woodworking which compared the finishes, and recommended that one.

I ordered the poly with overprint, which gave in an amber tint more like shellac or lacquer. I don't know what they have now. After learning to work with it, I really liked the stuff. I think that it was a harder finish than lacquer. As Gene said, it builds quickly. It's just different, but once you get use to it, it's good.

I did several pianos in black. It worked well enough. It had a little too much of a gray look to it, which is much the same reason many piano companies don't use polyester for a satin ebony finish. They use a polyester primer, and then spray black lacquer over top. At least that's what Baldwin was doing, and some others as well. So, it doesn't suprise me that they discontiued the black. It probably didn't look black enough for many people.

Gene, thanks for that info. Do you use filler paste or just spray on more coats?

Have not used filler paste yet. If I ever do a gloss mahogany finish again I will.
The Enduro will fill grain considerably better than lacquer but it takes some experimenting.

I've never tried PIANOLAC but it looks interesting.
It's a water based wood lacquer for pianos.

I've used Mohawk, PianoLac, PC Finishes and Target Coatings. Target is by far the best product in application and result. They have a spray on filler that is troweled with a wide plastic blade. I haven't had a chance to work with that yet but if it is as nice as the satin and gloss it will be a winner. Nice thing about water base is no blushing. It likes humidity in the air. HVLP is the way to go. Water clean up is GREAT and there is not the killer fumes as with stanard laquer. I prefer the way water base sands out. Almost like a powder and it does not gum paper like solvent base. Target has a wide range of products and is on the web.

I have used the Target products and they are good
Got them thru Homestead Finishing THey can advise you I did gray primer and then black with clear on top of that One thing is watch out for the effect of moisture in the paint on raw veneers . they can wrinkle or bubble I would seal any areas like that first. Had a replacement music rack do that!!!

Sorry -- double post. ddf

It's called Oxford Premium Spray Lacquer and comes from Target Coatings: http://www.targetcoatings.com/. (You can order it directly from Target.) We've been using it for about five years with good results.

Each coat does chemically burn in to the previous layers. We've not seen the witness lines we commonly had with other waterborne lacquers when sanding through layers.

ddf

Very helpful and timely discussion for me as a rookie--refinishing my first piano. I was recently given an upright Lyon & Healy piano, and while it was in pretty good shape in terms of how well it plays/sounds (other than being woefully out of tune), the finish left a lot to be desired. I stripped and restained it over the last few weeks, and I'm just about to pull the trigger on what kind of finish to use. I went with a dark walnut stain, and thankfully the piano took the stain really well. So far, it's turning out beautifully. So, if I can just get the poly to go on without too much trouble, I might have something nice.

I do not have access to an HVLP, so right now my plan is to take my time and brush on a water-based poly like those described above. I have refinished hardwood floors using these type of products, but I will admit that that's the extent of my experience. Any advice would be most helpful, including how many coats are recommended, and whether a lacquer or shellac might serve me better. One other thing to note: I have small children, so a harder, more protective finish will serve me well.

Thanks in advance,
Josh

Please try to avoid brushing on the clear finish - especially after taking the time and effort to strip and stain.
Borrow a gun or buy an inexpensive one. My HLVP conversion gun cost less than $100. and it does just fine with lacquer and water base.
I would also suggest consideration of the Oxford Premium that Del mentioned. If you have never rubbed out a water base finish before you will avoid the associated layering issues that can haunt you. Enduro Poly gives a beautiful finish but I would probably choose the Oxford for my next project.
Also, if you want a more children compatable finish you may want one that will also repair easily. A finish that chemically bonds to existing layers - like lacquer - can be repaired much easier than Enduro.
If you have used a grain filler you probably only need 3 or 4 coats. Experiment on something other than your piano if you are not certain.
Glue some walnut veneer onto something and work with it to get a feel for the product.

Thanks for the responses. I had heard that there was a waterbased finish which had burn-in qualities, but couldn't remember what it was. I have a couple pianos coming into the shop that I might try my hand at this again. It just takes alot of time. We have fewer options in the area now to contract out, so I may have no choice soon. The one guy that we have been using is now booked up for a year in advance.

Thanks for the link, Del. It looks like they also have a refinishing forum there, which could be useful.

Have any of you tried spraying plates with a waterbased finish? I haven't been brave enough to try putting bronze powder into the waterbased product, and have stuck to the nitrocellulose for that application only.

I also used an HVLP conversion gun for the Enduro Poly. It worked well.

What products/stains are you using with the target Oxford Spray Lacquer to achieve a black lacquer finish?

Black is, of course, the Achilles heel of waterborne finishes. I’m not completely happy with any of the black finishes available in waterborne materials. We are currently finishing a piano using PSL that is showing some promise. Target sells a black pigment that is mixed with their clear. We used that as base and build coats with a clear topcoat. The topcoat is sanded and polished. It is pretty good but not yet up to the standards of the best organic-solvent based materials. The more you polish the better it looks. A traditional sanded and rubbed finish still looks a bit gray. Not bad but, as I say, not yet up to the standards of older finish materials.

Still, this is all we now offer. For environment reasons I stopped using organic-solvent based materials some years ago. I have some samples around of what these finishes look like. If the customer wants something other than this they are encouraged to go elsewhere.

ddf

I had to do spraying of the organic type recently. God how I love the water base! I never realized that even with good masks and ventilation how much the laquer thinner tears you up. Not so with water base. Did organic for 30 years and will never go back if I can avoid it. The key with water base is LIGHT coats. It seems counter intuitive; you don't feel like you're getting enough on. But the build is faster and better with several light coats. Must be a better solids ratio with water base. One pass at a time, let set for bit, pass again and repeat to taste.

coming to this thread late with a comment and question.

comment: regarding the waterbased black lacquer color problem, Arthur Grudco is using a beautiful jet black and expensive pigment in Pianolac which rubs out absolutely beautifully...a deep black without even a hint of that gray cast often found in blacks.

question: I am committed to entirely eliminating solvent based coating in the shop. WB and the case is coming along nicely.

What about the plate? Bronzing powders in the WB coatings are a problem..No? Seems like the flexibility of the WB coatings would be a real good thing on the plate.

And the soundboard? is the relative softness of the coating a problem with soundboard function?

OK. Next time I do a black piano I'll try PianoLac.

I haven't found a WB clear that would take bronzing powders yet. I keep trying.

I've been using Oxford PSL on soundboards for five or six years. Works great. First coat should go on thin. Then sand lightly to get rid of the raised grain. There won't be as much as you expect but there will be some. Then spray normal coats. I use two to three coats.

ddf

What are others using for a spray gun setup with these WB coatings. My gun is a Binks Mach II which was great with solvents, however, I question whether it is a good choice for the WB products. I find it difficult getting an "off the gun" coating with WB and this gun...micro bubbles and so on...

Jim I

I used a SATAJET 2000 HVLP. Run it at about 29 PSI.