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#618870 - 01/31/09 07:16 AM What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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junmer Offline
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junmer  Offline
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United Arab Emirates
I bought a new set of hammers and shanks for my Yamaha C3. The new hammerheads came in separately from the shanks so I needed to glue them in one by one. I used hot hide glue and it seemed to work. I wonder if there will be a negative effect in the long term as hot hide glue is excellent for key bushings only(?).


JUNMER
Piano tuner / Piano teacher
Dubai
United Arab Emirates
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#618871 - 01/31/09 07:38 AM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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Keith Roberts Offline
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Murphys, Ca
Hot hide glue is good as long as it is not too "clean" of a grade. A light clear is usually too hard and brittle. Joe Garrett used to make his own formula for hanging hammers. Kawai has their own formula. You shouldn't have any problems if you got enough glue in the joint and left a good collar.
If they loosen up, it is no problem to pop them off and use a little cold hide glue to re glue them.


Keith Roberts
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca
#618872 - 01/31/09 07:44 AM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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junmer Offline
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Thanks Keith. It's going to be a wait and see situation. I want to play it real hard to see the strength of the glue.

I've never encountered cold hide glue.


JUNMER
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Dubai
United Arab Emirates
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#618873 - 01/31/09 09:33 AM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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Bob Offline
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Recently, I've used Titebond molding and trim wood glue. It has the same glue up properties of hide glue but you don't have to heat it.

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#618874 - 01/31/09 11:29 AM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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rysowers Offline
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Hide glue is wonderful and amazing stuff: incredibly hard and strong and easily reversible. It's also environmentally friendly. (it may also be good for your hair and nails!) I like to use urea to lengthen the gelling time. This helps a lot when trying to get a good joint on hammers - it needs a little time to soak into the wood. I think I remember Wally Brooks saying once that with hot glue the shanks don't take up as much moisture as with aliphatic resin glues. This could mean less burning-in after installation. I believe they use hot glue for all their pre-hung sets of hammers.


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
#618875 - 01/31/09 12:56 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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Roy123 Offline
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Has anyone tried Old Brown Glue ? It's hide glue processed to have a long open time, and which doesn't need a glue pot because it liquifies at a much lower temperature. It is popular with builders of fine furniture. Like ordinary hide glue it can be softened with heat.

#618876 - 01/31/09 01:58 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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junmer Offline
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Thanks for your posts. My only concern is whether the hide glue is strong enough to cope with hard blows. But it seems you're all in favor of it so it's going to be a wait and see situation. My C3 has a Dampp-Chaser installed in it so I guess I won't worry about moisture problems.


JUNMER
Piano tuner / Piano teacher
Dubai
United Arab Emirates
0097150-6543009
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#618877 - 01/31/09 02:00 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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junmer Offline
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Roy, I'm curious about what others might say about the Old Brown Glue.


JUNMER
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Dubai
United Arab Emirates
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#618878 - 01/31/09 02:45 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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KawaiDon Offline
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Never heard of "old brown glue" but it sounds like a variation on cold hide glue.

I have always preferred hide glue, but I agree that the Molding and Trim glue from Franklyn does work well, and it dries hard. A good glue collar of very hard glue has tonal benefits.


Don Mannino, MPA
Kawai America
#618879 - 01/31/09 02:55 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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junmer Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by KawaiDon:
A good glue collar of very hard glue has tonal benefits.
Really? I thought only voicing affects tone.


JUNMER
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Dubai
United Arab Emirates
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#618880 - 01/31/09 07:25 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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Supply Offline
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Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Quote
Originally posted by junmer:
... My only concern is whether the hide glue is strong enough to cope with hard blows....
Junmer, what do you think was used to glue on hammers for 250 years before plastics and "artificial" glues came along? Not just the hammers - everything in the piano, and every piece of furniture as well.

#618881 - 01/31/09 07:45 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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Keith Roberts Offline
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The tone is only as good as the impact the hammer can deliver. If on impact, the shank eats up some of the energy of the hammer, the wave formation and the rebound is affected. Tonal quality is dependent on the hammer imparting a clean blow and exiting rapidly. Checking and repetition is also affected because the weak spot is at the hammer head when there is no glue collar.


Keith Roberts
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca
#618882 - 01/31/09 07:54 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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BDB Offline
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Quote
Junmer, what do you think was used to glue on hammers for 250 years before plastics and "artificial" glues came along?
I think it is more like 5000 years that hide glue has been used.


Semipro Tech
#618883 - 01/31/09 09:01 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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rysowers Offline
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It sure smells like it's 5000 years old sometimes!
[Linked Image]


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
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#618884 - 02/01/09 12:28 AM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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5000 years?? I never knew the piano was such an ancient instrument!

#618885 - 02/01/09 12:30 AM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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Apparently there are artifacts from Egyptian tombs that were made with hide glue.


Semipro Tech
#618886 - 02/01/09 12:33 AM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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vin mrykalo Offline
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Sometimes hot hide won't work very well because the parts being glued together were too cool (temperature-wise). I always warm the parts if I am using it. If used correctly, you can't beat it.


Vince Mrykalo RPT MPT
UK Piano Technician
#618887 - 02/01/09 12:43 AM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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Sorry, I thought this thread was about glue for hanging piano hammers.

I didn't look closely at the details of Junmer's avatar. My mistake....

#618888 - 02/01/09 05:45 AM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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junmer Offline
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Thanks for the info that hide glue was the glue that was used since ancient times. However, it is not the glue I see that is being used for joining the shank and head in modern pianos. Something must have come out better that it's already been replaced for that purpose.


JUNMER
Piano tuner / Piano teacher
Dubai
United Arab Emirates
0097150-6543009
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#618889 - 02/01/09 04:34 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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Gadzar Offline
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Mexico City
I hate that new glue that is being used in New pianos.

Recently I replaced a set of dampers and it took me 2 hours to remove the old dampers! With hot hide glue it's done in 15 minutes.

I've never replaced a set of hammers glued with this new stuff but I think it will be harder to do.


Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
#618890 - 02/01/09 04:41 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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Larry Buck Offline
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One of the tolerances that insures a lasting joint is how tightly the hammer fits on the shank.

If you are accustomed to boring and reaming the shank hole making for a looser fit then perhaps many glues will fail.

If you can hang a set of hammers with a tight tolerance between the shank and the hole in the hammer, then even Hot Hyde glue will be very difficult to free.


"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

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#618891 - 02/01/09 04:48 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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You should have a shank knurler if you replace hammer heads. The knurling swells up and makes a tight joint as long as you use a water-based glue. Shanks may come knurled, but they will absorb water between the time they are made and the time you install them, so it is better to do it over yourself.


Semipro Tech
#618892 - 02/01/09 08:59 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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Roy123 Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by KawaiDon:
Never heard of "old brown glue" but it sounds like a variation on cold hide glue.

It's probably somewhat similar, but unlike cold hide glue, it does have a gel temperature.

#618893 - 02/12/09 12:31 AM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?  
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RoyP Offline
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I just glued on some hammers using the Titebond molding and trim glue. I was unhappy with the alignment of a few of the hammer heads, so I decided to try heating the heads and moving the angle. I clamped a heat gun into a vise, and held the hammer and shank in front of it to heat the joint. It worked. You heat it, put pressure on the joint, and once it gets warm enough you can feel it move. Now I'm wondering if this compromises the strength of this type of glue. Does anyone know?


Roy Peters, RPT
Cincinnati, Ohio
www.cincypiano.com

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