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I have a 1976 Steinway B with the original teflon action. I am interested in replacing it with a Renner action, and Steinway hammers. The price I was quoted is $5400, which also includes the move to the facility, and regulation and voicing. I am located in the Philadelphia area, and Cunningham Piano will be doing the work. Is this a reasonable price?

Cunningham's work is meticulous, and $5,400 is the market price in our area. You'll be replacing the action with Renner parts, not a Renner action. These are two different things.

Good point Curry. Renner parts do not make a Renner action.

Steinway hammers are expensive so I'm guessing the price does not include the damper rail but includes a nice key leveling job on what is probably an accelerated action. What a pain.

Is that true? The price does or doesn't include the damper rail? There are teflon bushing in the damper rail too. It's about $2000 a rail. Hammer rail, wippen rail, and damper rail. $5400 would be a good deal if it includes the Renner back (damper) action. Better set up than the Steinway.

kpiano

How much more are Steinway hammers over Renner Blue hammers? I was told that since I was after that "true" Steinway sound, I would want Steinway hammers since they are much softer. Is that true?

I'm not sure about the damper rail, I'll check on that. Thank for the input!

Everything Steinway sells in their parts catologue is about 30% more than other parts suppliers. Yes the Steinway hammers which are considered cold-pressed, are manufactured softer then other hammers such as Renner, which are hot pressed. Steinway hammers must me lacquered to bring up the tone, whereas Renner hammers must be needled quite a bit to achieve good results.
Stick with Steinway hammers, they are the appropriate choice for a Steinway.

Ronson hammers are similiar to Steiway. Really does make a difference in the sound over a hard pressed hammer. For the difference of 4 or 500 dollars extra for the S&S hammers, if it worries you, go with the Steinway hammers. Cunningham does excellent work. I have seen his stuff at the conventions. Go with what they like.

kpiano

Thanks. It does not include the damper rails as you asked earlier. It is not a renner action, but renner replacement parts. Michael Sweeney quoted me $7k to do the same job, which seemed rather higher, and he suggest Renner Blue hammers, stating that the Steinway hammers are a nightmare to keep voiced for the first few years because of being so soft. He felt the Renners were more "stable". So now I'm a bit unsure of which hammer to have put in. I really do what the mellow steinway sound, not a bright sound, so I'm still leaning towards the S&S hammers.

I think you would want the back action (damper action) replaced. There are geometry problems with it, and the job is not really complete without addressing that too.

I would advise to replace with Helmut Abel
Hammers measured up the right way. They can
be made slightly more harder than standard
and be "worked in" by needleing just to the
right level, not more. This will give the
best result.

I took the steinway voicing class from Eric Shandal? the CA tech from Steinway. If you properly lacquer the hammers, softness is not an issue and hammers brighten with age because the pounding works the felt causing the fibers to tighten like Chinese handcuffs and the string grooves get to the lower felt layers which are harder.
Judging from your concerns about having the "Steinway" sound, and mellow, go with the Steinway hammers. The hammers Steinway uses are part of their concept of the sound created. Cunningham has a an excellent reputaion and their price is top dollar. Unless you have a break down of the jobs to compare, it is hard to compare bids.

I agree with Vincent, the scrubbing of the damper levers is a friction and noise problem. The renner action solves that.
Listen to Curry.

kpiano

Indeed, it should be noted that Abel makes the
hammers for all Steinway Pianos, but to their
specification. If one knows how to order to the
right spec. then as mentioned above, 30% at least
can be saved.

Exemplar, I don't know where you get your info, but Hamburg Steinway uses Renner hammers in their production, and NY Steinway makes their own hammers for their production. At one time Hamburg Steinway did uses Abel hammers for a while, but that is not the case at the present time.
Abel does make hammers that a tech can order for use in many different manufacturers pianos, but in this case NY hammers are the way to go.

Stand corrected! Since I am european I am not
used to the soft hammers produced for the american
markets. Also when refering to Steinway one tends to look at the Hamburg factory, having used Abel for a great many years. The NY factory is downrated much in europe, especially as plastics would be intolerable over here.

I agree. Plastics in a piano from an upmarket manufacturer like Steinway would be considered very bad form in Europe. There is even inertia from technicians over the perfectly good ABS Styran and Carbon actions from Kawai. I am sure that this is the legacy of the dreadful plastic actions built in the UK in the '60s and '70s such as the nasty Bentley 'Richard-Harley' action which used polypropylene for action flanges; not a good choice since polypropylene 'creeps' over time and distorts, and the totally apalling Lindner action which bizarrely combined Renner hammers with polystyrene, flexi-metal and household string.

----------------------------

I've a feeling that the Hamburg factory is more revered in the States too, Exemplar. A few years back I was thumbing through the LA Yellow Pages (as one does!) and the block ads for piano dealers were full of dealers proudly announcing that they sold "Hamburg Steinway".

Just a note.

The tech for 7k may have quoted to replace the keyframe felt and the key bushings.

Cunningham may not be diong that work.

I would ask.

Abel, Renner and Steinway hammers are all top quality. The choice of which comes down to the sound and play you want. It is personal and subjective. Each of those hammers has particular tasks required to regulate tone and touchweight.

My personal taste for sound and play is for Steinway hammers.

You may do fine with Renner or other hammers not made at Steinway in New York. However, the keys made for Steinways with Teflon bushings were usually very heavily loaded with lead. The rebuilder I work with often discards them and installs all new keys (not just recovered or rebushed ones). This may be what Cunningham has in mind. If he suggests it, I would not oppose the idea.

I hope you have not chosen to replace the action parts merely because they have the Teflon bushings. If there is a good reason, then yes, go ahead. I still service some Steinways with the original Teflon and these can work well but when it is time to replace parts, you have no choice. Teflon bushings were often a scapegoat for other problems when the bushings themselves may not have been a problem at all.

The large amount of lead that you observe is associated with the accelerated action which Steinway introduced in 1937. In this system the keys contained a larger number of key leads positioned closer to the fulcrum rather than a smaller number of leads positioned farther out toward the ends of the keys as in the pre accelerated action Steinways. This practice predates the era of teflon bushings.

$5400 sounds about right for this and is about what I would charge for a full action rebuild including hammers, shanks and flanges, whippens, letoff buttons and screws, key bushings, new balance rail and front rail punchings and back rail cloth followed by key leveling and a full regulation and voicing. The guy charging $7K probably isn't offering anything more. He's asking $7K perhaps just because he thinks he can get it. I would too, but I am in a competitive part of the world and if I charged $7K for that I'd never get any work. There are people where I'm at who would do it for a lot less than $5400.

Niles Duncan
Piano rebuilder, Pasadena, CA
www.pianosource.com