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Trouble Shooting #614245
11/12/08 04:46 PM
11/12/08 04:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Jerry Groot RPT Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member
Jerry Groot RPT  Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Here is a fun exercise for your brains and a good learning experience for those that are up and coming technicians.

Please Post the most likely or even unlikely possibilities. Along with other possibilities. Whatever comes to your mind!

DIAGNOSE THESE PROBLEMS ON A VERTICAL:

1. Click on release?

2. Click on Strike?

3. Bobbling sound?

4. Ringing note?

5. Heavy Touch?

6. Note just goes "thud?"

7. Note feels mushy/spring?

8. Jingling sound and a bobbling hammer?

9. (SPINET)- A key goes down, you lift it up but it won't stay and note won't play?

10. Push sustain pedal. Dampers lift best in the treble and gradually worse down to the bass?

HOW ABOUT THESE PROBLEMS ON A GRAND?

1. Sounds like two notes are being played on one key?

2. Note rings for a few seconds but, then stops?

3. On a HARD blow, key won't go all the way down?

4. On a HARD blow, key goes down but, no sound?

5. On a medium soft blow, no sound.

6. Clicking sound on release on the entire bass section?

7. Five keys go down when you press one?

8. Put the note in check. On release the hammer plays again?


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
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Re: Trouble Shooting #614246
11/12/08 07:32 PM
11/12/08 07:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,292
North Carolina
Ron Alexander Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ron Alexander  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,292
North Carolina
Good job Jer....we need some testing around here!!! I shall return to the classroom here with answers in hand. :p


-----------------
Ron Alexander
Piano Tuner-Technician
Re: Trouble Shooting #614247
11/12/08 08:18 PM
11/12/08 08:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,861
USA
B
Bob Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Bob  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,861
USA
1. Click on release: Butt felt missing (jack slapping against butt) or key stop felt missing or stop too low or loose whippen screw or loose/petrified Kimball/Baldwin capstan grommets.

2. Click on strike: Loose hammer or catcher or hammer flange, or shank, or has corfam butt, or bridle wire rubbing, or loose damper head or miss aligned key top or loose key top, or coin between keys, or loose key stop rail support nut, or tuner annoyed at ultraflex pins!!

3. Bobbling hammers: Not enough dip, too much lost motion, or backcheck not adjusted properly or missing backcheck felt, mice ate balance rail punching, whippen heal or sticker felt missing.




Re: Trouble Shooting #614248
11/12/08 09:39 PM
11/12/08 09:39 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,339
Old Hangtown California
G
Gene Nelson Online content
2000 Post Club Member
Gene Nelson  Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
G

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,339
Old Hangtown California
1.Two notes playing - over shifting on unachord.
4.Hard blow key goes down, no sound - cheating jack.
5.Medium soft blow no sound - excessive letoff/drop.
6.Clicking sound in bass section on release - rear key frame needs bedding.
8.Put note in check, release and it plays again - checking too close and or excessive rep spring tension.
When do we get the answers?


RPT
PTG Member
Re: Trouble Shooting #614249
11/13/08 12:09 AM
11/13/08 12:09 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 67
Inwood
Tunerjoe Offline
Full Member
Tunerjoe  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 67
Inwood
1/ clik on release - hangnail
2/ clik on strike - loose tile under caster
3/ bobbling sound - ceiling fan interfering with background noise
4/ ringing note - tinitus
5/ cliking on bass section- hangnail on your left hand
6/ heavy touch - are you a vegetarian?
7/ Note feels mushy - booger on it
8/ jingling with bobbling hammer - xmas record playing while the ceiling fans running
9/ spinet note wont play - factory specs
10/ sustain pedal lifts treble first - strings not on the same plane


Tunerjoe
P/T piano technician
Inwood WV
Re: Trouble Shooting #614250
11/13/08 12:46 AM
11/13/08 12:46 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 283
Grimsby ON Canada
Thomson Lawrie Offline
Full Member
Thomson Lawrie  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 283
Grimsby ON Canada
1/ missing butt felt 2/loose hammer 3/ back check needs adjusting 4/leaking damper 5/ dampers lift too soon 6/damper not lifting 7/key cracked at balance 8/cracked brass butt plate 9/lifter rod is of the back of the key 10/broken sustain rod flange

1/hammer spacing 2/trichord felt damper not lifting far enough 3/hammer catching on back check 4/jack not adjusted far enough under knuckle 5/let off way too far back 6/loose hammer stop rail 7/Pencil 8/ spring too strong


Piano Technician
www.pianotech.ca
Piano tuners make the world a better place, one string at a time.
Re: Trouble Shooting #614251
11/13/08 01:17 AM
11/13/08 01:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 386
Mexico
E
Erus Offline
Full Member
Erus  Offline
Full Member
E

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 386
Mexico
4. Ringing note?

Damper problem (on same not or another): a) spring's too weak b) felt/wedge wore out.

longitudinal mode issue (ok, very unlikely).

5. Heavy Touch?

a) Dampers lift too early b) Springs are too strong c) Excesively tight pinning d) Excesively tight bushing.

6. Note just goes "thud?"

a) Let-off too close b) Damper spoon can't release damper.

7. Note feels mushy/spring?

Mushy: lost motion

8. Jingling sound and a bobbling hammer?

Bad pinning?

9. (SPINET)- A key goes down, you lift it up but it won't stay and note won't play?

a) Sticker disengaged/disconnected b) Broken elbow?

-------------------------------------------------

1. Sounds like two notes are being played on one key?

If it's just one key: a) Unison out of tune (might be a loose pin/pinblock problem, or just out of tune)? b) Hammer misalignment. If it happens on many notes, una corda shifts too much.

-------------------------------------------------

Great thread idea!!!

Re: Trouble Shooting #614252
11/13/08 06:20 AM
11/13/08 06:20 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 15
New Hampshire
T
TestBlow Offline
Junior Member
TestBlow  Offline
Junior Member
T

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 15
New Hampshire
1. Butt felt missing

2. Loose hammer head

3. Insufficient jack rotation

4. Damper not contacting string - spoon bent too far towards damper underlever

5. No lost motion


7. Let-off very far from string

8. Loose hammer screw


9. Broken/disconnected sticker

10.Action not seated properly; bass side of action isn't fully secured against bracket

1. Misaligned hammers.
Rep. lever is lifting two knuckles.

3. Hammer tail caught on backcheck

4. Cheating jack - repetition lever is too high/jack is too far forward.

5. Let-off too far from string

7.Pencil caught underneath backchecks

8.Repetition spring is too strong
Drop is too high


Matt Quinlan, RPT
Piano Tuner/Technician
Re: Trouble Shooting #614253
11/13/08 07:37 AM
11/13/08 07:37 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 515
Windsor,Nova Scotia Canada
W
wayne walker Offline
500 Post Club Member
wayne walker  Offline
500 Post Club Member
W

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 515
Windsor,Nova Scotia Canada
to all of the above problems, sounds like an unprepared Chinese piano

Wayne


Wayne Walker
Walker's Piano Service
http://www.walkerpiano.ca/
Re: Trouble Shooting #614254
11/13/08 09:04 AM
11/13/08 09:04 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,643
Strong, Maine
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
David Jenson  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,643
Strong, Maine
When I saw the topic I got all excited. I was going to suggest - hold sight picture, let breath out slowly, squeeze trigger for surprise break. Durn!

Tuner Joe actually has a point. 98% of the time it's something technical in the piano, but his responses reminded me of the time a child across the room was watching my movements and hitting a small toy piano bar with a dowel in time with my tuning blows. The room acoustics made the things even worse. 'Sounded like it was right in the piano!


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
Re: Trouble Shooting #614255
11/13/08 11:32 AM
11/13/08 11:32 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,645
D
Dave Stahl Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Dave Stahl  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
D

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,645
Good one, Jerry. Dang, I was going to go for a bike ride, but you got me....heck, it's foggy anyway.


Quote
Originally posted by Jerry Groot RPT:
1. clicking on release: butt felt missing, rubbing bridle wire, loose bracket screw in hammer rail

2. click on strike: Loose hammer head or shank, loose catcher, quarter under key

3. bobbling sound: Broken Yamaha spring cords, excessive lost motion, key height too low, letoff too close.

4. ringing note: Damper not seating properly, poorly regulated or misaligned. Strings not level or aligned.

5. Heavy touch: tight key bushings, tight pinning, poor geometry, excess friction, damper lift early, etc., etc....his one could go on.

6. Thud: letoff too close, checking poorly regulated, too much key dip.

7. Spongy: soft front rail punchings, not enough front rail punchings, balance rail hole not reamed properly, stickers caught in sostenuto rail felt (Mason and Hamlin uprights).

8. Jingling Sound and Bobbling Hammer: Foreign substance on hammer?

9. Spinet note goes down and won't return: broken elbow, disconnected elbow or sticker.

10. uneven damper lift: rod brackets loose or broken, dampers poorly regulated (a long shot, but worth a mention).


1. Sounds like two notes are being played on one key? Una corda overshifting

2. Note rings for a few seconds but, then stops? poorly seated strings

3. On a HARD blow, key won't go all the way down? backcheck catching hammer tail

4. On a HARD blow, key goes down but, no sound? jack too high in window, repetition spring detached or very weak, tight jack or balancier center

5. On a medium soft blow, no sound. letoff set too far from strings.

6. Clicking sound on release on the entire bass section? Loose hammer rebound rail.

7. Five keys go down when you press one? Pencil or other foreign object lodged in keys or action.

8. Put the note in check. On release the hammer plays again? Rep springs too strong.


[b]DIAGNOSE THESE PROBLEMS ON A VERTICAL:


[/b]


Promote Harmony in the Universe...Tune your piano!

Dave Stahl, RPT
Piano Technician's Guild
San Jose, CA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAniw3m7L2I
http://dstahlpiano.net
Re: Trouble Shooting #614256
11/13/08 04:44 PM
11/13/08 04:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Jerry Groot RPT Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member
Jerry Groot RPT  Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
You are all giving the answers Gene!! laugh And, great ones at that! Any other possibilities?

1. Loose wippen flange, pencil or something else, lodged under neath back of key. And, of course, everything else you people listed and probably more.

2. A hammer shank that is slightly split in half is another possibility for a click on either release or strike. Damper wire hitting stop rail.

3. Very good Dave, that's one I was waiting for. Broken Yamaha cords.

4. Addition to the above great answers. Damper could be mis-aligned, worn, not seated properly, coming off to soon with spoon or with pedal or needs a simple pedal adjustment.

5. Addition: Springs to tight, parts need lubrication, cleaning, action gummy, (Vertigris) Dampers lifting to early.

Skipping 6.. U nailed it.

7. Broken key.

8. Jingling sound and bobbling hammer: Coins or other foreign objects on top of and/or under neath keys. If underneath, could be lodged in such a way as to not allow the key to go down.

9. Yep, broken elbow.

10. Broken damper hanger/s. Also, incorrectly aligned -- bent, damper hangers. And yes, poorly regulated damper wires.
----------------------------------
1. Loose tuning pins. Hammer flange pin may have come out allowing hammer to flop over to the neighboring strings on strike.

2. Damper guide rail bushing could be tight. Damper wire could be bent. Damper lead weight may have fallen out or jammed between dampers.

3. Back check catching hammer tail.

4. Cheating jack. Orrrr---U just broke the hammer! :-))

5. Good answers.

6. Loose hammer rebound rail is what I was waiting for. Also, loose ut ooh, I'm having another brain fart for the terminology. The key stop rail? Rail just above the keys on a grand. Those screws could be loose, moved down a tad, clicking up release, also could be keeping keys from returning all the way up too.

7. Pencil or other foreign object lodged in keys or action.

8. Yep.

Great answers! If you can think of anything missed, please post it for all to read!

THANKS!


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
Re: Trouble Shooting #614257
11/13/08 05:13 PM
11/13/08 05:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,292
North Carolina
Ron Alexander Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ron Alexander  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,292
North Carolina
Trying to find one with no answer

9. Broken plastic elbow.


-----------------
Ron Alexander
Piano Tuner-Technician
Re: Trouble Shooting #614258
11/13/08 05:19 PM
11/13/08 05:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,292
North Carolina
Ron Alexander Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ron Alexander  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,292
North Carolina
7. A key with a crack (not quite broken). The crack us usually across the key button and down one side of the key.


-----------------
Ron Alexander
Piano Tuner-Technician
Re: Trouble Shooting #614259
11/13/08 11:19 PM
11/13/08 11:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 45
MN
T
Torger Offline
Full Member
Torger  Offline
Full Member
T

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 45
MN
5. Heavy Touch? full size eraser between hammer springs and dampers.

7. Note feels mushy/spring? leftover milk chocolate balls from (insert your favorite year) that also fell into the same action.


Torger Baland
Piano Tuner / Technician
Minneapolis / St. Paul
www.PapagenoPianoTuning.com
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Re: Trouble Shooting #614260
11/14/08 09:26 PM
11/14/08 09:26 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 35
Idaho
J P Offline
Full Member
J P  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 35
Idaho
#10 Vertical, Uneven damper lift...

Check that the action bracket posts have not been adjusted improperly. Bass action bracket post set too far into the piano.

If they are, it changes the distances of the damper lever to the damper rail in an uneven way. I don't know of any specs from manufacturers determining the proper placement of vertical action bracket posts.

I've only seen it once, but it took quite some time to figure this one out.


the piano mechanic
thepianomechanic.blogspot.com
Re: Trouble Shooting #614261
11/15/08 01:30 AM
11/15/08 01:30 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,018
Murphys, Ca
K
Keith Roberts Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Keith Roberts  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
K

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,018
Murphys, Ca
#11 Constant clicking.

Give the pianist a manicure and remove the fake nails. Then refinish name board.


Keith Roberts
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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