Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Piano Forums & Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

What's Hot!!
Welcome PianoTV members!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Fall 2017
Pierce Piano Atlas

Who's Online Now
119 registered members (andrea monza, akc42, accordeur, 7uturu, 32 invisible), 1,169 guests, and 1 spider.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#609835 - 11/12/08 08:13 PM ETD's and Temperament  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Emmery  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada
I remember over 20 years ago when we were learning to tune temperaments all we had as an external guide was the information we had in our heads and our teachers opinion and improvement suggestions about the final result. Tuning sessions began with us striking a 7 bps device and walking off to the tuning room with our tools and a tuning fork. Even though strobes were around then, they were frowned upon (for good reason), and I marveled at the notion one day in the future there will be something better.
This learning process is quite different from one that uses an ETD as you go along through a sequence for a temperament. Verification could be done note for note or as a completed temperament octave. I presume at some point or another student techs could justlay out a close rough temperament with an ETD and concentrate only on refining it. We didn't have this option back then. It took most of us a long time to learn how to roughly set it by ear and then a lifetime to keep refining it. Does skipping the process of rough setting the temperament for students using ETD's leave a gap in their overall results, or does it fast forward them to the spot we all end up anyways? What skills would be lost that would lessen the over all tunings result? Will people in the future look at a tech that does this the old fashioned way in the same way as you would look at someone adding numbers using a slide rule?

Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
(ad 800)
PTG Journal
PTG Journal
#609836 - 11/13/08 12:58 AM Re: ETD's and Temperament  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 386
Erus Offline
Full Member
Erus  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 386
I think this could be a matter of didactics.

You might not need to make anybody skip the rough temperament at all. When teaching something, you might just work on a few things at the same time, not trying to get any of them completely perfect, but use them to teach some important principles. After that, you might review some of these, or focus on one... And then you can repeat.

Teaching doesn't have to be linear, it can be iterative. There are usually many different ways to teach something, you don't need to teach things in the same order you learned them.

You don't have to skip the rough temperament, you just might introduce it in episodes or introduce it indirectly.

I think the tools you use while learning can affect the way you think about things.

We can make tools become an extension of our senses (I think that's actually what we should aim for).

I don't know if this makes any sense...

#609837 - 11/14/08 09:54 AM Re: ETD's and Temperament  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,773
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,773
Bradford County, PA
I was looking at the Verituner Website. It has graphs of beat rates for how some ETDs tune particular pianos including a Hamilton Console.

Of course the purpose of the graphs was to show how the Verituner was better. On a larger piano the differences would be less.

So, if a tuner learns to tune smaller pianos from a particular ETD I would expect that they would tune like that particular ETD and not another. The ETD that was learned from may decide the tuning style, not the tuner.

Myself, I deliberately tune much like the SAT III on the graphs. I prefer a jump in the beat rate of the M3s so that the 4ths and 5ths are more even.

Your slide rule analogy is a good one, except multiplication and roots are usually used with a slide rule. By learning to use a slide rule and seeing the numbers on the scale in logarithmic spacing, the concepts might be more easily learned than from a calculator. I remember the excitement of getting a slide rule for Christmas. It was just what I wanted! (Honest)

With setting the temperament I think that the concepts of how the beat rates of the various intervals really affect each other may be learned better aurally, but I don't really know for sure. Actually, I am not sure that the concepts are generally understood at all, especially on smaller pianos.

Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
Save Big In our online store now

In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.

Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
Maine Coast Music Vacation for Adults
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Ritmuller Pianos
PianoTeq 6 Out now
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Wurlitzer upright Scarlatti
by manykeys. 01/21/18 12:48 PM
Yamaha CLP 545 vs 635
by pianist007. 01/21/18 12:33 PM
Correcting technique and slow reading (and ..
by pianopi. 01/21/18 11:51 AM
Kawai ES8 keys clicking
by tesla3. 01/21/18 11:09 AM
A flying concert grand piano - fun!
by Rich Galassini. 01/21/18 07:38 AM
Forum Statistics
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |

copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0