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JERRY!!!!!!!!!!!!In need of a diaper???? They make 'em especially for the age'ing!!
----------------- Ron Alexander Piano Tuner-Technician
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Does my avatar look like I do?
Jerry Groot RPT Piano Technicians Guild Grand Rapids, Michigan www.grootpiano.comWe love to play BF2.
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Oh, that's an avatar...?
thought that was the real you... was feeling sorry for your wife...
So you tell us - does your avatar look like you or not?
By the way - Ron, my 10 year old loves your wild hair and youthful demeanor...
JG
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No wonder I'm always having to chase her around the house! And here all this time I thought she was just playing with me when she was actually really trying to get away! Go figure! I don't know Jurgen, you tell me!? http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YfSlWjP3yOuE_sZ9JCKTQg?feat=directlink
Jerry Groot RPT Piano Technicians Guild Grand Rapids, Michigan www.grootpiano.comWe love to play BF2.
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Originally posted by rsross: Wow. I obviously want to learn about piano technology, otherwise why would I be bothering here. I *really* want to learn how to do minor adjustments and repairs to my own instrument. I do the same thing with my Cello, I do the same thing with my car, I do the same thing with my house, I do the same thing with my audio equipment. As I said I also really know my limits and regularly call in professionals, not to fix my mistakes, but to deal with things I am obviously not skilled nor tooled to do. If you really want to learn then find a local mentor. Most folks don't move the soundpost of their cello on their own or shape a fingerboard. If you are truly earnest then it should not be hard to find a mentor and you will get the information and supervision you require.
Piano Technician Pro horn player Recording Engineer
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I'm always surprised at what an uproar folks get in! I think the OP had a really good question. Steinway flanges ARE trickier to align to the strings. Even though it's a Steinway, there is no guarantee that they were properly aligned in the factory.
The OP's question is worth a discussion. I'm sure many professional techs are not that experienced with aligning parts in Steinways, and would appreciate some helpful hints.
I am of the opinion that if you have a problem with a post, simply don't respond to it. Why put energy into something you don't think is worthwhile?
rsross, since your this far into it you might find it very worthwhile to contact Steinway and get the new CD version of the service manual.
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How about, You don't center the hammer on the strings in the plain wire section. Steinways you line up the left side of the hammer, 1mm over from the left wire. Maybe 1.5mm.
Is that a direct enough answer to the question? And don't make the mistake of not loosening the screw and setting the flange in place because the cloth on the rail will cause it to spring back. Of course you need to check the felt on the left key frame glide. New felt there could move the frame over a mm or two.
Let's see, what else of Yamahas 37 steps to grand regulation could come before, that would affect the hammer alignment?
Keith Roberts Keith's Piano Service Hathaway Pines,Ca
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I don't think I would treat my own local clients any better (or worse) than some anonymous query on the internet. If a local client called me with this type of question, I know what I would say: "I think an expert with experience should have a look at it"
Personally I would never advise my client to call Steinway and ask for a service manual. Perhaps other techs might...
When this kind of question comes up, there are probably at least half a dozen other issues and adjustments that need correcting, as properly alluded to by Keith. There are always very, very many details and questions that the DIYer doesn't even know about to ask...
JG
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Yes, but he was not asking about all the other adjustments. He had a specific question about a specific issue. It was a discussion that could benefit many on this forum. He understands the risks and is excited to learn. Many of us started out tinkering on our own pianos before we were "qualified".
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I too was appalled that a Technician would suggest someone other than another Techncian or Dealer, call Steinway to request a service manual. Action regualtion is NOT brain surgery, but it does require some degree of training, working with a mentor, or self study that usually results in major frustration and initial screw ups. It requires some degree of experience. I, for one, will NOT help these people. I usually remain quiet and move to another thread when I see them. But in this instance, we are talking about a Steinway M; a very expensive piano, and one that has more than the normal quirks when it comes to regulating the action. So if one surmises my comments as an uproar, or "nasty," then so it be. I certainly dont intend them to be nasty or offensive. If people here have a burning desire to help the piano owning public learn to regulate or tune or whatever, they are certainly entitled to this opinion, and to post as such. My desire when it comes to educating the public is to help them understand the maintenance needs of their piano. There are things an owner can do to help me keep their piano in tip top condition. Becoming an amateur piano tech is not one of them. Peace and Harmony.
----------------- Ron Alexander Piano Tuner-Technician
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“He understands the risks and is excited to learn.†Agreed. Apparently though, he does not like to be taught. Part of being an instructor is allowing the student to “see†or “discover†where the problem lies. Many of the posters on this thread have given plenty of information, nudges, and hints. Armed with all of that help, and further, with the instructional books that the OP has, or claims to have, should have gone a long way to helping solve the problem. The OP has made several claims in this thread about fixing a colorful variety of mechanical objects. It seems that the OP would like to learn on his own and has stated so. Then why come here then? Most here have a working life as a professional technician. This is hardly doing it yourself if we tell the OP the full answer. Some might want to go back and read the entire thread. In my book this is not a discussion, it is answering and solving a problem (sight un-seen) for a DIY’er and no proof has been supplied that this is his piano. How do we all know if we are assisting in helping to screw up a good action? In this particular instance, the OP wanted the whole answer to the question without trying to sort it out for himself. When he does not receive the answer he is looking for he gets objectionable…… www.silverwoodpianos.com
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Posted by Sliverwood; In my book this is not a discussion, it is answering and solving a problem (sight un-seen) for a DIY’er and no proof has been supplied that this is his piano. How do we all know if we are assisting in helping to screw up a good action? That is one of the best reasons not telling guys like this anything except it sounds as if he's already screwing it up. :rolleyes: If he is lying to us then for sure he is going to go ahead and collect money for it and proclaim it working properly. Anyway. So I say, if you have to suggest he find a tech or mentor, you don't have to be rude. Let one of the more polite guys, tactfully suggest it and then just echo. We don't need hysterical or insulting dissertations on this subject everytime someone asks a question. I much prefer sarcasm.
Keith Roberts Keith's Piano Service Hathaway Pines,Ca
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Oh, there are guys like Jerry Vivano that have done some really nice things with their work because of our help and I'm sure it has only wetted their appetite
Keith Roberts Keith's Piano Service Hathaway Pines,Ca
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Greetings, In the same sense that the balloon seller will GIVE you a needle, here is how you space Steinway flanges. First, actions usually migrate to the left as the stop felt compacts. Do not try to space the hammers to accomodate this global movement or you will have all the shanks sitting to the right of the bump pads.pick the majority of the shanks that are centered over the whippen rest pads and determine if you need to shim the stop block on the bass side of the action cavity. While traveling,keep the flanges in their same position, (if you move the flanges laterally on previously compacted hammer rail cloth, they will really travel a lot, but will be unstable), you can then move the hammer from side to side by placing traveling paper on opposing corners.
If you put the paper, ( I use brown packing tape cut in various width strips, from 1/16" to about 3/16") under the proximal right corner and the distal left corner, the hammer will swing to the right without upsetting the traveling. The reverse also is true. If you keep the flange in the same indentation on the hammer rail, it will usually keep its traveling undisturbed. If you place the paper under just one corner, you combine traveling and spacing, ie, If the hammer is traveling to the right, yet is hitting the strings as you like, then placing the paper under the proximal right corner of the flange will space the hammer to the right while also traveling it to the left.With experience,the amount of time and paper required to space and travel can be minimized. Inre the whippens:they are spaced and traveled the same way, though everything is at 90 degrees, so get accustomed to the procedure on the hammers first. The whippens must not only align with the knuckles at the balancier window, they must also align with the capstan. This twin requirement sometimes necessitates traveling the whippen so that it is not perfectly vertical, but tht can't be helped.
There is a lot of things to keep in mind, not the least is that when you changed the spacing on well worn hammers, you will need to learn to shape and resurface them, since string grooves misaligned to strings sound terrrible. Hope that helps, regards
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One other things about that paper: the wider the strip, the greater the effect. Also, how far out the paper is located, the greater the effect, ie, if you place a 1/16" shim at the very edge of the flange, it will have more effect than if you place it halfway between the center and the edge of the flange.
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Bravo Foote! I have been working on pianos for over 50 years and am still learning everyday. The first year in the business I went to a shop in NYC. Asked a simple question and was told "we can't answer that it is a secret". There were other times as well. These so called secrets I later found were not so secret. However it is like the dark ages with these people. If I had to hire a piano man it would most likely be you as opposed to those who were unwilling to help. This thread made me think of those days. Your answer was very complete.
Piano Tech El Paso, Texas tuneit@swbell.net
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Excellent post Ed!
Speaking of spacing hammers...
A good tip I picked up at the California PTG conference this year was to space the hammers with the una chorda pedal activated. Space the hammers so that the left edge of the hammer splits the left string. Then finish by filing off the edge of the hammer.This way you end up with very uniform hammer position with the una chorda depressed.
I believe it was Richard Davenport who suggested this, but I'm not sure.
I've been getting pickier about the una chorda adjustment and voicing the past year. Steve Brady's new book inspired me to pay more attention to this. It was suggested by one of the concert artists he interviewed that technicians should pay more attention to refining the una chorda.
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Thank you Ed, for the answer. Steinway flanges are indeed more difficult than other flanges due to the rosette shape, and I actually didn't know how to regulate them before a few weeks ago. I started by traveling the hammers with strips of brown tape at the middle of the center "hump", on either side, and then finished by spacing with little nibs of tape at opposite corners.
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Excellent post Ed!
Speaking of spacing hammers...
A good tip I picked up at the California PTG conference this year was to space the hammers with the una chorda pedal activated. Space the hammers so that the left edge of the hammer splits the left string. Then finish by filing off the edge of the hammer.This way you end up with very uniform hammer position with the una chorda depressed.
I believe it was Richard Davenport who suggested this, but I'm not sure.
I've been getting pickier about the una chorda adjustment and voicing the past year. Steve Brady's new book inspired me to pay more attention to this. It was suggested by one of the concert artists he interviewed that technicians should pay more attention to refining the una chorda.
that is the standard method, only in treble it happens the strings have to be moved a hair You cannot voice the UnaCorda correctly without that.. Left side cut or no depending of the method used, but positioning the hammer vs the left string is important Good that standard methods are taught in PTG meetings It is better to shim at the left of the action for the hammer positioning, then only regulate the UnaCorda pedal Then using graphite or carbon paper to have clear imprints on the hammers, necessary for voicing clean with fine abrasive paper when finished
Last edited by Olek; 05/30/14 01:18 AM.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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@rsross, when I space and travel hammer flanges, I strive for consistent and parallel spacing between the flanges (i.e., I don't rotate the flange in an arc--with the screw as a pivot--unless it is an emergency concert-like situation). A tool like a non-bendy putty knife can help you feel the size of the gap between the flanges, and to also move a flange left/right. If the supporting flange screw is tight, and the screw on the flange that you want to move is slightly loose, there is a much better chance of keeping the sides parallel. I regulate until I observe consistency in the spacing; I also check the hammers with the strings to make sure I am going in the right direction. When observing parallel flanges, you should also begin to notice parallel shanks when they are held in a level plane.
Sometimes, the flange may need to go more to the side than the screw hole will allow. I use a small round file to enlarge the hole on the side that will allow for the required movement.
Next, I travel the shanks, using a rounded file (i.e., instead of tape). I find this to be more stable. I am, however, grateful that most technicians use tape--the übermajority of the time when I go through and make the flanges parallel, traveling usually involves removing the tape that someone else applied because of a crookedly spaced flange. I often use a piece of carbon paper to mark the underside of the flange to alert me to what areas are actually in contact with the flange and where wood is being removed. CAUTION: this is very dangerous if/when mistakes are made (i.e, too much, or on the wrong side), so one really needs to know what is going on (i.e., tape is safer, because it is easily reversible).
Then, heat the shanks to correct the hammer angle. This needs to be done every time a hammer traveling adjustment occurs.
If you want things to be perfect, do the whole procedure over-and-over again until you don't notice any irregularities.
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