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#607241 - 05/15/07 09:23 PM What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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snoopycar Offline
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Singapore
Hi all, what's the glue used on uprights?
I've seen some are light yellowish, some semi-transparent.

I've not seen what hide glue looks like. What color is hide glue?

thks


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#607242 - 05/15/07 09:32 PM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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Gene Nelson Offline
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Old Hangtown California
Hot hyde glue or yellow carpenters glue is good for gluing on hammers to shanks or hammer shanks to butts.
They both work good but the key is to use a glue that will come loose easily with heat and a bit of moisture and not much persuasion.
Hyde glue is a brownish color.


RPT
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#607243 - 05/16/07 12:27 AM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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piannaman Offline
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PVC-E glue seems to be popular these days. It's pretty easy to work with and easy to undo should you make an error.


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#607244 - 05/16/07 02:14 AM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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snoopycar Offline
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Where can PVC-E glue be found?
Model shop? Hardware store?

Pls take a pic if you can, thks. smile


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#607245 - 05/16/07 02:19 AM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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junmer Offline
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I also don't find the recommended glue for hammer shanks so I just use Elmer's glue. What's not good about this?

JUNMER


JUNMER
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#607246 - 05/16/07 02:28 AM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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Rod Verhnjak Offline
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Dave,

I think you misunderstood what snoopycar wants the glue for.

The question is for hammer shanks.


Snoopycar,

PVC-E is used for keytops or felt to wood.

You will have very poor results using it for wood to wood. PVC-E is very rubbery.


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#607247 - 05/16/07 05:47 AM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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snoopycar Offline
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Thanks to all very much for the info.
At the same time, I might get some of different types of glue to experiment on wood to wood, wood to leather.. this weekend.
(planning to repair a old piano)


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#607248 - 05/16/07 10:29 AM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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Dave Stahl Offline
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Rod,

It wasn't specified what materials are being glued. I guess I should have assumed the parts in question are all wood. Different materials do better with different glues (how's that for deductive reasoning?..)

Kawai, for instance, uses PVC-e glue for gluing shanks into butts. But then again, that's wood to carbon or abs. I think other asian companies use PVC on shank joints, though, judging by the look of it.

Hot hide is ideal if you're doing whole sets. For field repairs, I generally use carpenter's glue because it dries quickly, bonds well, and is easy to clean up.

I think you can find PVC-E at a plastics store. I got a tub from Schaff awhile back.


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#607249 - 05/16/07 07:31 PM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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Anne Francis Offline
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Is there a difference between carpenter's glue, cabinetmaker's glue, wood glue, and Elmer's, or all they different names for the same stuff?


Anne Francis
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1906 Heintzman upright (rebuilt)
#607250 - 05/16/07 07:32 PM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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Anne Francis Offline
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I do realize, BTW, that PVC-E is different from those I mentioned above.


Anne Francis
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Check out my blog! www.annefrancis.ca/blog

1906 Heintzman upright (rebuilt)
#607251 - 05/16/07 07:48 PM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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Rod Verhnjak Offline
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I purchase PVC-E in a 5 gallon pale. I am not able to find it in any stores. I special order it from a glue manufacture. Purchasing it from a piano parts distributor is just not cost effective, unless you use very little.

Yes, it is excellent for leather as well.


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#607252 - 05/16/07 08:16 PM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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Jeff A. Smith, RPT Offline
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Quote
I also don't find the recommended glue for hammer shanks so I just use Elmer's glue. What's not good about this?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Elmer's white glue isn't water soluble. If that's what you're using, the problem would be for a future tech wanting to dissolve the bond. For making any glue joints in a piano, I think Elmer's white glue is now pretty much discouraged.

Jeff


Jeff A. Smith
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Indiana, USA
#607253 - 05/16/07 10:23 PM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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RoyP Offline
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I have used Titebond Molding and Trim Wood Glue. It has a fairly thick consistency, and strong initial tack. In other words, if you glue something like a hammerhead back on, it will stay in position. It doesn't run or drip easily. Someone told me that it does come loose with heat, although I've never tried it personally.

Hot hyde glue works well, but you have to heat it up. Cold hyde glue works, but it doesn't set up very quickly. If you glue something like a hammer shank, it's prone to slide out of position unless you clamp it somehow. It takes a long time to dry.


Roy Peters, RPT
Cincinnati, Ohio
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#607254 - 05/16/07 10:24 PM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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I use Titebond regular, (not the waterproof formula) for house calls. Tacks fairly quickly and comes apart easily with heat. The excess cleans up easily with a damp cloth. I used the cooked hide glue in the shop for doing a bunch of them. The liquid stuff works, but it's slippery and takes too long to tack.


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#607255 - 05/16/07 10:31 PM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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RoyP Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Rod Verhnjak:
I purchase PVC-E in a 5 gallon pale. I am not able to find it in any stores. I special order it from a glue manufacture.
Rod:
A five gallon bucket? What are you doing, drinking it? Painting your house with it? smile That would be a 20 year supply for me, and it would go bad long before that.


Roy Peters, RPT
Cincinnati, Ohio
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#607256 - 05/17/07 12:44 AM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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BDB Offline
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Elmer's white glue will be satisfactory, and can be removed with water. It is very similar to the carpenter's glue, but it tends not to be as hard when it dries, so it can be messy to clean up. For hammers it should be fine, but it may not be as good for other wood to wood uses.

The biggest improvement I have had gluing hammer shanks was getting a shank knurler. Every tech should have one. You can roll a shank under a coarse file to knurl it for gluing in a pinch, but a knurler does it more accurately.


Semipro Tech
#607257 - 05/17/07 02:49 AM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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Rod Verhnjak Offline
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Roy,

I host our PTG meeting here in our shop every month so I am often giving glue away to my colleagues. Sharing it, is better than it spoiling.

Also we use plenty of PVC-E between the refinishing shop and in rebuilding actions, felt, leather, rubber buttons, etc.

It lasts me just over a year.

I surly don't drink it!!!!

Someone emailed me and asked if it is good for keybushings. The answer is NO It is terrible for keybushings. You will be forever easing the keys. You need a glue that sets hard like Hot hide or even the Bolduc Acoustic Glue.


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#607258 - 05/17/07 04:38 AM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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gerg Offline
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I did some research. Genuine hide glue looks like a great product for use with pianos - probably why it's been used for so long. It does take a bit more work to prepare, with strict temperature limits (140 degrees) and the need to avoid cooling and re-heating.

Genuine hide glue (i.e. not the liquid kind):

* Forms a very strong bond

* Is long-lasting

* Is self-clamping

* Sticks to old hide glue, unlike synthetic glues

* Breaks cleanly, without taking chunks of the wood it's holding with it (heat and moisture are reputed to help break the bond).

* Dries fairly quickly

* Has an indefinite shelf life in its unused dry (granule) form.

On the downside, it:

* Does not fill gaps well - must be applied to two exact-fitting pieces.

* Must be mixed with water at about 140 degrees. Any hotter and the bond weakens.

* Must be used shortly after mixing, or maintained at about 140 degrees. Hence, the glue pot.

Check out the Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hide_glue

I plan to use genuine hide glue for any work I do on my piano.


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#607259 - 05/17/07 05:47 AM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
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This is a fun site:

http://www.thistothat.com/

--Cy--


Cy Shuster, RPT
www.shusterpiano.com
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Director, PTG Norfolk 2016 Technical Institute
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#607260 - 05/17/07 10:06 AM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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junmer Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by BDB:
Elmer's white glue will be satisfactory, and can be removed with water. It is very similar to the carpenter's glue, but it tends not to be as hard when it dries, so it can be messy to clean up. For hammers it should be fine, but it may not be as good for other wood to wood uses.

Please cite an example of wooden piano parts that are not good to apply Elmer's glue on.


JUNMER


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#607261 - 05/17/07 10:12 AM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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Keith Roberts Offline
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A split key bushing, key or wood parts that have to be clamped. You want to use a more permanent waterproof glue like Elmer's carpenter glue.


Keith Roberts
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca
#607262 - 05/17/07 11:39 AM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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Elmer's carpenters glue is not waterproof. There are waterproof versions of it, however. White glue will work for a broken key or bushing, but you will need to clamp it longer than with carpenter's glue. You might not want to use it for gluing wood in to fill a loose screw hole, since the softness will leave some sponginess that makes it difficult to screw into. Also it is not real good for gluing finished case parts, because it is difficult to remove the excess after it has dried cleanly.

If your local hardware store can get Elmer's white glue, it should be able to get their carpenter's glue.


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#607263 - 05/17/07 12:09 PM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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when my tech glued a set of hammers onto shanks, he told me the glue he was using was an "elphatic" glue. what is that? if i remember correctly, i thought he said it was rubbery. but rubbery is not good for hammers/shanks?


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#607264 - 05/17/07 12:13 PM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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Aliphatic. It usually refers to carpenter's glue.


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#607265 - 05/17/07 12:17 PM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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Aliphatic glues include white glues and carpenter's glues like those made by Elmer's or Titebond. The world aliphatic refers to the type of long organic molecules which are the working part of the glue. I think these glues were originally made from milk byproducts which were the source of the aliphatic molecules.


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#607266 - 05/17/07 12:27 PM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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Aliphatic resin glue = "yellow glue" Titebond (for example)

The preferred glue for hamers to shanks, (and anything that is part of the acoustic make-up) is one that is very hard after drying. The reason is that a flexible, soft or rubbery glue will act as a damper to vibration and sound transfer. A hard glue will enhance vibrational properties of the components involved.
For these reasons I avoid regular white glue, especially any craft glues.
Examples of a a hard drying glue are hot hide glue, liquid hide glue, many aliphatic resin glues and some specially formulated white glues as mentioned above. My personal favorite for many uses is fish glue. I use it for hammer heads and other action repairs, soundboard repairs, and for glueing leather, I know of no better glue.

I have seen too many glue failures with white and yellow glue on hammers. Sure, we all see hot hide glue failing here too, but usually after decades, not a few years as I have seen with the white and yellow stuff.

#607267 - 05/17/07 09:19 PM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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Thanks for sharing so much good information, it's indeed superb information gained on this thread. Pianoworld is infoworld !! #;^)


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#607268 - 05/18/07 12:10 AM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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snoopycar Offline
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I've read alot about Hot Hide glue and is convince of it's useful function. Where can i mail order Hot Hide glue. I reside in Singapore.

I can't seems to find it at International Pian Supply.
Any other supplier to introduce me? thanks.


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#607269 - 05/18/07 01:16 AM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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There are many woodworking supply shops that will sell hide glue. Also violin maker suppliers. Artist supply stores might have it.

In a pinch, you can use unflavored gelatin crystals, which is the same stuff refined for consumption, but it is more expensive. That could be an easy way to try it out.


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#607270 - 05/18/07 08:17 PM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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I've heard that the fish glue that Jurgen recommends is the only glue that a Shigeru Kawai technician will use. Perhaps that can be found in Singapore.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
#607271 - 05/18/07 11:53 PM Re: What glue is used on hammer shank?  
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Check out my favorite tool store for fish glue
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3&p=20019&cat=1,110,42965&ap=1

and two grades of hide glue
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3&p=20002&cat=1,110,42965&ap=1

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