Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter

Piano*Dad wrote:" The individual needs a punishment as well as the firm they represent. "

P*D- I've agreed with much of what you have written so far but I think this smacks of the witch hunt. For one thing, we really don't know if pianomadam really does represent Steinway. I have always had my doubts about that. She/he has never provided any verifiable identity to support that, and has behaved in ways that would make that a very questionable claim. Even if she is a legit dealer, do we have any evidence that Steinway knows or approves of this type of behavior? I can't imagine Bob Snyder, for example, doing this. The idea of "punishing" Steinway (don't they get enough of that around here anyway? ) for pianomadam's sins (whoever she/he actually is) seems a bit over the top.

Sophia

wow. I know the economy, and the piano market for that matter, are on the ropes right now, but this trancends slow business and boredom, heading full steam towards guile.

However, it's been an entertaining read.

As the PianoWorld turns.."

Back to pm's appology post; Genuine? or a crock of doo doo?

Or does it even matter?

Hey, I'll take that, too.

As for the rest of what Chris says, I agree wholeheartedly. Sunlight's the best disinfectant.

Here we all come out of the woodwork. all we need now is FTP.

That's inconsequential poppycock, this 'paid for postings' trade will continue, it has been since the days of Usenet (and which was one nail of many in Usenet's coffin)

What happens right here in PW is not too bad in comparison. It's just that minimum administrative measures ought to be part of site maintenance, that's all, IMHO.

I am sure the moderators are aware of this mess and they are taking their time to make the best decision. I have confidence that they will do the best they can for this forum's ongoing vitality. It may be that they have to tread carefully here because this may be a landmine field of legality.

Dan

My point was really about the individual punishment. This board has not really tried policing socks, even ones that have been de-socked publicly, so to speak.

The firm they represent gets punished by all the negative backwash generated by the sock/shill getting caught. That seems unavoidable and it is independent of whether or not that firm (or manufacturer) was aware of the activity. That's a consequence of preserving anonymity on the web.

BTW, your point about the possibility of truly Machiavellian reverse spin (as in PianoMadam was really trying to throw dirt on Steinway instead of praise) is well taken. Others have argued for this possibility as well. In this case I doubt that is true. PM's posting history here seems far more amateurish than Machiavellian. But this reverse-spin possibility is yet another unavoidable feature of allowing dealers to post anonymously.

I am certainly not arguing that the forum itself should try to punish Steinway, or any other firm, for the lame behavior of its employees. I do wish to see us crack down on the individuals who behave in this way.

Firms themselves do have an incentive to tell their employees how to behave in situations like this. If I were Steinway, and PM was indeed an employee that I discovered to have perpetrated this little episode, I would at the least have a woodshed moment with that employee.

No matter what we do or don't do there are consequences. We could request that dealers do more than give their affiliation. We could ask them to behave as Steve Cohen and many others. Post their actual affiliation, not just their brands. That would ensure that no Machiavellian reverse-dissing was likely. On the other hand, it would drive out all dealers who were unwilling to be as visible as Steve. I'm agnostic about how to 'make' dealers behave.

But I remain of the view that individuals should pay some price for clearly transgressing known ethical boundaries.

P*D
Agreed about appropriate consequences for individuals who violate the rules/boundaries. In rereading my post, I don't think I actually suggested the Machiavellian scenario that PM is a competing dealer seeking to make S&S look bad (not that I have not at times thought it). Perhaps the amateurish posting style was designed purposely to throw us off the scent-- even more Machiavellian! Well, before we turn PM into the evil genius of PW and start gathering our pitchforks and torches to storm the castle, hopefully the moderators will have some information or a response forthcoming.

Sophia

I think what Pianomadam did has damaged the image of the so-called Steinway designed pianos, that is, Essex and Boston, as well as Steinway in this incident.

:rotfl:

this post is a classic.

actually, imo, these events are a very good education for piano shoppers. they reveal the character of the piano business, which has never been particularly high-minded, even when business was good.

trusting someone in the piano business just because they put a good face on themselves at PW is not wise, either.

there *are* legitimate, ethical, and trustworthy piano dealers out there, but i'd be hard-pressed to say they are in the majority. and it's all too easy to manage one's image in an online forum.

buyer beware, as always.

I think the moderators should check IP address on the most touted products on here. Walters included.

I'd be happy to help check IP addresses if allowed.
I know where I'd look first and I'd bet some posts would disappear before I got started.

I'll donate 10 hours of my time if the mods want.
Just give me permission and the knowledge how to do it and I'm in.

I wounder if it is as easy as clicking the orange IP "logged" title between our "registered" date and the "Report Post" on the bottom of our post pages.

From the PW Code of Ethics for industry folks...

If you can get banned for self-promotion, it seems that what to do about proven deceitfulness is a no brainer.

Exactly! The apology must include repayment of any money lost.

Let's start a list.

Anyone who has lost any money based on Pianomadam's advice please post the amount so she can begin mailing the checks.

Once all the checks are in the mail we can begin the discussion of forgiveness.

I lost 25 Walter sales so that's around a buck fifty.

Well, if I sold them at the prices I read here.

I dunno, bluekeys, the ukulele forum seems like it's a wild and crazy place, too; check out their two page thread on the sexuality of "ukers" (as they apparently are known).

This was willfull, pre-meditated and manipulative. Add that to the posted rules here that specifically prohibit socks, particularly when it influences shoppers and it is clear.

Somebody out there likely knows who PianoMadam is. They should identify her/him to the mpderator who should contact and have them agree never to darken our door.

Also, I would begin to suspect everybody. Those who would sock here generally earn poor reputations and are often outed. I do think it is all that common here.