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#59778 - 01/13/09 10:19 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 57
paulmarcus Offline
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paulmarcus  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 57
USA
turandot,

My ambition to say as little as possible to keep emotions down has failed. I certainly don't claim to know everything, but I do try to only convey my opinion or facts that I'm aware of. Most of what I conveyed comes right out of Steinway's marketing DVD... and my local Steinway dealer. However, I have played both Essex and Pearl River and it's not a fair comparison.

To answer your question.. I'm not sure exactly what patents in particular they're using although I would imagine many. For instance in action design, soundboard, scale, plate, etc. It is common knowledge that chinesse labor is rediculously cheap. Else why are so many major piano manufacturers creating pianos and using chinesse labor to assemble them? Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not know of a chinesse piano manufacturer that's building pianos by hand. It is basically an assembled piano contracted by another company.

Look at Renner for example. Many piano companies have Renner make an action specific to their application for their piano. Because Renner is in the business of making actions. The chinesse are in the business of assembling pianos.

The Essex may be a "cookie-cutter" piano, but the cookie-cutter came from Steinway. Another clarification.. only the verticals and 5'1" grand are contracted by Pearl River. All the other Essex's are being contracted by Young Chang. The only concern I would have personally is the quality of assembly by the chinesse. However, since it is warrantied by Steinway there should be some peace of mind.

There are some companies that don't design the product at all I know. They simply have an already manufactured product put a different name on it and pass it off as a new product. Personally I think is marketing fraud. I'm not aware of which or if any piano companies are doing that, but Steinway is not. In fact, all the new Essex for 2009 are now going to bear the "designed by Steinway" right on the fallboard.

How much design is Steinway's? How many patents? I don't know. This is a good question for me to ask my dealer next time I'm in.

Any further insight is welcome. I'm not here to be right.. only trying to help and share my opinion.


Marcus
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#59779 - 01/13/09 10:33 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,755
mdsdurango Offline
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mdsdurango  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,755
Durango Colorado
I've read and re-read this thread and so have an idea of what happened with pianomadam and her shenanigans but can not be certain. Can those of you in the know please explain exactly what occured.

And what is shpeeel?

Mike


WHAT???????
Yamaha S6, U5C, P120
http://michaelstith.com
#59780 - 01/13/09 10:38 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
turandot Offline
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turandot  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
Quote
Any further insight is welcome. I'm not here to be right.. only trying to help and share my opinion.
Me to, Marcus. I actually like the tone of the Essex, and have said that in this forum more than once. The clean forward tone is more pleasing to me than the tone of the Boston. Of course that's subjective, but I'm on record here for never knocking the Essex PIANO.

This however is not the place to debate the Essex since apparently the OP was only our beloved pianomadam asking a phony question with a phony name to prop up (of all things) the ESSEX. thumb

I do think there is a danger when you might influence a potential buyer here with the 'knowledge' you glean from a company DVD. That 'knowledge' is all-too-readily available at the shop. When a member asks for advice in this forum, they are hoping to get beneath that surface veneer.

As far as I know, all Steinway patents expired decades ago. Any design element they offer is freely available to any other maker who would like to incorporate it into his own design. I have often read here as well that Steinway does not employ any designers and has not employed any designers for decades. I don't know if that's true, but on the occasions when it was stated, it was never challenged.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
#59781 - 01/13/09 11:16 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 326
Genaa Offline
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Genaa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 326
Winchester, UK
mdsdurango, this is what happened as I make it out....

it seems pianomadam posted the original thread starter 'pretending' to be someone interested in choosing between these 3 pianos... she then let a few replies trickle in from folks before 'replying' using her 'pianomadam' login to indicate she felt all were good choices but that the Essex was particularly 'neato'..

Beacon Chris however noticed a reply she had posted intending it to be from the OP 'CKlavier' thanking people for their advice and stating he was leaning towards the Essex...but she did so on the wrong IP address and login and quickly removed the post with the intention of re-posting it as CKlavier, but not quick enough as Chris not only saw it but managed to cut and paste it into a reply he was writing.... heheh - caught in the act smile marvellous - good spot to Chris wink more more!!


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#59782 - 01/13/09 11:27 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,755
mdsdurango Offline
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mdsdurango  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,755
Durango Colorado
So pianomadam - not too smart on two counts;
In the opening posts cklivier (aka pianomadam) writes: "I finally played a Charles Walter and was more impressed by the cabinet than I was the feel and sound, but it was OK, too. It had a decent amount of depth."
In pianomadams (aka cklivier) original post (copied and pasted by Beacon Cris) she writes: "Thank you everybody! The Walter is the one piano I have not tried yet and, if they are not available for less than $5,000 I guess I'll scratch that!"

Proves that nobody is a good enough liar to keep their stories straight.
Suppose we will ever see pianomadam again?

Mike


WHAT???????
Yamaha S6, U5C, P120
http://michaelstith.com
#59783 - 01/13/09 11:37 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 695
DanLaura Larson Offline
500 Post Club Member
DanLaura Larson  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 695
Pocatello, Idaho
Quote
Originally posted by mdsdurango:

Suppose we will ever see pianomadam again?

Mike
Well since she likes to create psuedonymous posters I'm sure she will be around in some form. The sock puppet show would lose dynamics and texture without her here.

Dan


Dan and Laura Larson
Fazioli and Ibach grands
Larson Piano Studio
http://www.stoneformsart.com/
#59784 - 01/13/09 11:56 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
apple* Offline
apple*  Offline


Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
Kansas
anyone who is not impressed with the CW doesn't know how to play very well.


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
#59785 - 01/13/09 11:59 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,755
mdsdurango Offline
1000 Post Club Member
mdsdurango  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,755
Durango Colorado
Quote
Originally posted by apple*:
anyone who is not impressed with the CW doesn't know how to play very well.
That would be me, although I've yet to play a Walter.

I can play a rousing version of "She'll be Comin round the Mountain" though! It sounds real good on my S6!

Mike


WHAT???????
Yamaha S6, U5C, P120
http://michaelstith.com
#59786 - 01/13/09 12:15 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Horowitzian  Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
Quote
Originally posted by Beacon Chris:
I can't believe I was on here just as it was happening. Frankly, I've been suspect of all these Essex threads lately!

BC
Hey, BC. I just wanted to say that my Essex thread, despite any can of worms it may have opened, had absolutely NOTHING to do with pianomadam. wink


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
#59787 - 01/13/09 12:24 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,715
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Rod Verhnjak  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,715
Vancouver B.C. Canada
[Linked Image]


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Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

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#59788 - 01/13/09 12:34 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 496
Avantgardenabi Offline
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Avantgardenabi  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 496
When some Canadian and American piano professionals wished me to get my "butt" sued, I realized many things about some of piano professionals and their mentality... frown

I am sure Pianomadam was quite desperate, however, given today's economy...

#59789 - 01/13/09 12:38 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,715
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Rod Verhnjak  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,715
Vancouver B.C. Canada
Quote
Originally posted by Avantgardenabi:
When some Canadian and American piano professionals wished me to get my "butt" sued, I realized may things about some of piano professionals and their mentality... frown

I am sure Pianomadam was quite desperate, however, given today's economy...
For the record Avantgardenabi is not referring to me.


Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook

#59790 - 01/13/09 12:39 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 496
Avantgardenabi Offline
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Avantgardenabi  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 496
Of course, not you, Rod! smile

#59791 - 01/13/09 04:07 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
apple* Offline
apple*  Offline


Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
Kansas
heh


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
#59792 - 01/13/09 05:17 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 177
windsound Offline
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windsound  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 177
IL
Sorry to say but this is a pretty bad joke to advertise a low-end brand like Essex this way.

#59793 - 01/13/09 06:07 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 695
DanLaura Larson Offline
500 Post Club Member
DanLaura Larson  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 695
Pocatello, Idaho
What's even sorrier is that it wasn't a joke.


Dan and Laura Larson
Fazioli and Ibach grands
Larson Piano Studio
http://www.stoneformsart.com/
#59794 - 01/13/09 08:50 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 307
DarkGreenChocolate Offline
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DarkGreenChocolate  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 307
Michigan
I've actually HAD a last-row seat at the Wiener Volksoper! Don Giovanni--what a show!

And here I was, worried I'd been too harsh in my post...

Sometimes I think I've gotten too immersed in this website, and then this kind of thing goes on, apparently demonstrating that some others are far, far more over-invested...

#59795 - 01/13/09 09:25 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 513
Beacon Chris Offline
500 Post Club Member
Beacon Chris  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 513
Idaho
DGC,

The Wiener's can keep their Volksoper! My "il mio tesoro" was not exactly what they were looking for in my last audition. Seems they preferred Ottavio a slight bit "taller" and more "handsome". My wife begged to differ.

Go a little easier on yourself. You can never be too immersed in PW wink

BC cool


Musician, Singer, Teacher, Humorist, Dad...

“I have an inferiority complex, but it’s not a very good one.”
― Steven Wright
#59796 - 01/13/09 09:41 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member
turandot  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
Quote
The Wiener's can keep their Volksoper! My "il mio tesoro" was not exactly what they were looking for in my last audition.
OTOH, Chris, you landed the Osmin role in Madam's production of The Abduction From the Seraglio. They can't take that away from you.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
#59797 - 01/13/09 10:24 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 416
Pianomadam Offline
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Pianomadam  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 416
Southern United States
OK, here it is: I screwed up royally! My apologies to all on this forum. I'm ashamed and appalled at the lengths I saw myself go to. I let the anonymity get the best of me. I hope I can gain your forgiveness now or sometime in the future. I do value this site and assume there will be months of scourging I will be going through for any post I put on this forum in the future, but those are the consequences I'm willing to take on.

My apologies to Steinway & Sons, those that represent the Steinway & Sons Family of Pianos, and all piano professionals for my example.

That's all for now...


PianoMadam

Family of Steinway-Designed Pianos (Steinway & Sons, Boston, Essex) Dealer
#59798 - 01/13/09 11:02 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
turandot Offline
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turandot  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
Madam,

My hope is that there is no scourging. I don't think you set an example. I'm sure it's been done countless times before.

Stepping up and apologizing may have set an example though. I'd wager that's been done rarely, if at all here. Very gutsy move! It should make anyone who intends to ridicule you think twice before doing it.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
#59799 - 01/13/09 11:07 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
apple* Offline
apple*  Offline


Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
Kansas
oh.. don't worry. lots of dealers do that stuff.


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
#59800 - 01/14/09 12:21 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Horowitzian  Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
nm


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
#59801 - 01/14/09 01:12 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,715
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Rod Verhnjak  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,715
Vancouver B.C. Canada
It takes guts to write what you did even if we don't know who you are.

From what I understand,
what you have done has been done by others.

Perhaps an apology to Yamaha and Charles Walter would have also been in order.

[Linked Image]


Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook

#59802 - 01/14/09 01:21 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,642
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Furtwangler  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,642
Danville, California
Madam

I must say I am quite surprised and very impressed with your apology. How about a fresh start?

#59803 - 01/14/09 07:03 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 513
Beacon Chris Offline
500 Post Club Member
Beacon Chris  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 513
Idaho
Madam,

Disclosing your true identity and posting that way from now on would give you instant credibility here.

Try it - I think you would like it...

By the way, if you feel the urge to develop a multiple personality disorder again, have a Gianni Schicchi moment, i.e. something funny. (that was for you, Turandot)

Best to you,

BC cool


Musician, Singer, Teacher, Humorist, Dad...

“I have an inferiority complex, but it’s not a very good one.”
― Steven Wright
#59804 - 01/14/09 09:59 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,031
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member
schwammerl  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,031
Belgium
Madam,

A testimony of great courage.
Above all keep on posting while preserving your own opinions and personality.

schwammerl.

#59805 - 01/14/09 10:13 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,755
mdsdurango Offline
1000 Post Club Member
mdsdurango  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,755
Durango Colorado
Likewise Madam,
I was surprised to see you post and impressed to see your apology.

Keep your head on your shoulders and above water and you will be fine. Remember; "There can be no friendship without confidence; and no confidence, without integrity".

Lost for a moment but not gone as evidenced by your actions.
I agree with Beacon Cris that more info of who you really are in your signiture line would be appropriate.

Mike


WHAT???????
Yamaha S6, U5C, P120
http://michaelstith.com
#59806 - 01/14/09 12:35 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 95
JF Offline
Full Member
JF  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 95
I'm new to the board; are things always this exciting? Double agents, smart detectives, international intrigue.....

Word to the wise: IP addresses are trackable; nobody is totally anonymous on the internet.


Kimball 6'7" Viennese Classic
Adult re-learning after 20-years
#59807 - 01/14/09 12:51 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 5
POTUS Offline
Junior Member
POTUS  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 5
I'm new here as well, thinking I could get a little bit more honest information than I seemed to get when shopping for a new piano.

Now I see that we're forced to be extremely skeptical even on a forum of piano lovers. And when someone is caught red handed and belatedly admits the obvious, it's considered "a testimony of great courage"?

Maybe others have more time to sift through the it all and figure out what is truthful here, but I think it'd be more helpful to the rest of us if this sort of thing was policed by the moderators and the related parties banned.

And for the record, I recently bought an Essex 123 and so far so good. And the response on page 1 that $5000 is an excellent price..I paid a lot less. But at least I know that post was by a "sales professional", so it can be read in the appropriate context.

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