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Last night, after work and before closing time (which amounted to about 45 minutes) of the shop, I managed to sample some Bechstein and Grotrian Steinweg grands.

I first tried out the Bechstein Academy series - the 208 and the 228. I wasn't much impressed with either the feel or the sound. Not bad, but nothing to brag about. Unfortunately the shop didn't have the C. Bechstein (the top end series) B-grand (210cm) there, but the L-version (167 cm) which I did try -- wonderfully precise action, nice tone, almost as full as that of the 228 Academy one. They are getting in a new B-grand in a few weeks, I can try that one out then.

The Grotrian Cabinett (190 cm) felt like a nice instrument, clear tone, very "precise" (sound stopped almost immediately after key release) - definitely one to have a closer look at again.

Unfortunately, the Faziolis were being test played by someone else, so I'll have to do that later.

They also had a Bösendorfer and a Bechstein concert grand (280cm and 284 cm) in the show room which I tried out briefly (too big for us, really) - VERY nice instruments, beautiful tone, without being overpowering at all.

A refurbished Hambuurg Steinway B-211 was there as well - very nice, but I definitely think that the (new) C. Bechstein was much nicer, even though it was smaller, and the Grotrian was somewhat similar.

Anyway - at the moment, if the C. Bechstein B is better than the L in proportion of the size increase, it should be quite an incredible instrument. Will see.

Interesting is, that the dealer, despite having loads of new Yamahas standing around, does not stock the S-series at all. That would require going to Hamburg to test-play, which is probably a bit excessive. They do have a used one in their Stuttgart showroom, which might be an option, but I have to say that I wasn't impressed with the "regular" Yamahas at all, so I might give that a miss.

Markus

mjs:
The Grotrian Cabinett (190 cm)

Before David (a.k.a PianoDad) leaps in, I would just like to point out that the current model is a 192cm instrument . The older model was a 189, if I recall correctly.

-Michael B.

Thanks, Michael -- it was a new model, so then definitely the 192cm. Anyway, a nice instrument, give and take 2cm

Markus

As it happens, Markus, I am spending the year in Munich, I am also planning to buy a new piano, and I have also recently visited the same three dealers that you mentioned in one of your recent posts. My reaction to the Boesendorfer 200 at Pianohaus Hirsch was exactly the same as yours. At least for Haydn (Hob. XVI:20) and early Beethoven, I never even dreamed that such a beautiful sound was possible. I will probably buy one (since it is the largest model that I have room for). But I also liked the model 185 more than you did -- certainly a lot more than the Bluthner, which seemed to me a bit too piercing in the treble. I had first tried out the Bluthner, thinking that it was all I could afford, but once I began to play the Boesendorfer 185, I never wanted to play the other one again.
I also agree with you that the C. Bechstein 167 is a fine instrument. But you say that there wasn't a larger C. Bechstein at the Pianohaus Fischer. When I was there, however, there was one in the left hand corner of the Fazioli room. I forget the exact size, but it was certainly over 200 cm. It wasn't quite new, since they apparently rent it out for recordings. But it was available for sale. Perhaps it had been rented out on the day you were there. I thought it was the most beautiful piano in the shop, even compared to the Faziolis.
Good luck with your researches.

David

Hi David,

I had the feeling about the Blüthner as well that it was a bit piercing in the treble -- it appeared to me, however, that the tone wasn't quite even, either, so I put it down to not ideal voicing. I will definitely try out a larger Blüther (maybe in Leipzig whenever we go up to Berlin as it is on the way).

Well, when I was at Fischer last night, there was someone in the Fazioli room trying out the range, so I couldn't actually go in. There was a 280cm Bechstein in the main room - that really was nice.

Whereabouts in Munich are you?

Markus

Hi all!

I've been in both stores yesterday, too, and if I switched my visits to Hirsch and Fischer, we might have bumped into each other... But while it would have been nice to know you, I prefer it this way, so I was able to try the Faziolis around noon.

I had the same feelings about the Bechstein Academy pianos, and came to like the Grotrian best of all the pianos I tried yesterday. Faziolis aside, of course, they really are floating in a somewhat higher sphere, mainly financial point of view
Unfortunately, I don't share the excitement for the Bösendorfers, because I find them lacking in brillance, but it is merely a matter of personal preferences. Although, the 225 was pretty cool, much better than the smaller ones...

The Blüthner sounded really bright, but I think the place where it was stuffed didn't help much either.

The Sauter Alpha was impressive for such a small instrument and considering the bad acoustics of the stairhall were it is placed, and I can't wait to play the bigger ones...

I forgot to ask at Piano Fischer if they are getting a Grotrian Charis (205) or a Concert (225), but I wrote Mr. Ropertz an email.

I definitely will have a visit to both stores again whenever I happen to come to Munich. Do any of you know "Piano Hall"? I found them on the internet, and they are supposed to carry August Förster, but I had neither the time nor the energy left to call them up for a stop-by.

Mjs,
If you have a chance to play the Yamaha S6, you should. It really is quite a different instrument from the C series, even though some of that basic Yamaha "character" is still there. Tonally much warmer and more refined, though some might find it on the muffled side. I liked it as it is. Only thing is that it was priced far more than my Delta and as much as a Steingraeber 205 - which effectively put it out of my price range.

As for the Bechstein Academy series, I agree with your observation - nothing to really brag about, even though it is a fairly good piano. The A190 I tried was pleasantly warm on my first try, not particularly powerful bass, and somewhat loud overall (but it could be the acoustics). The touch was characteristic of Bechstein - feather light, yet very easy to control. The second time I tried the A190, the tone had brightened considerably, to the point I would consider piercing and unattractive. So overall, I walked away not being very impressed with the Academy series. For that price range, I think I would rather get an Estonia 190. I wonder though, whether there is a huge difference compared with the C Bechsteins. From your impression, it seems that there is.

I also agreement with various posters' observations about the piercing treble of the Bluthners. Overall the Bluthner I played had a surprisingly "shallow" tonal character, quite lacking in the bass. Having said that, I must qualify that the specimen I tried had clearly not been well prepped, so I shall reserve final judgement on the make until a better specimen comes along.

Have you also had a chance to try the larger Shigerus - SK5 and above? I would urge you to take a look at those, because they are a significant improvement from their smaller cousins. (They don't sound academic to my ears )

That matches my experience. The Bechstein Academy instruments I tried had very (even painfully) bright trebles, and a couple of other people locally have recently said the same to me about them.

Best wishes,
Matthew

That seems to be a deliberate design characteristic of the Academy Bechsteins. I had the same issue with the uprights - fantastic touch, but treble that was really far too piercing. I'm not sure to what extent the C Bechsteins would differ though - from the posts here, it seems quite a huge gulf in tonal quality.

Well, there really is a huge difference, judging by the 160 model, which has a very pleasing tone. As understandable as the difference is, considering the huge price difference, I do not understand why they chose to design pianos with such a different character for their low-cost-series. Maybe (just guessing) the soundboard material and the strings are different, yielding substantially different results from the same scale design, or whatever...

I haven't played a Bösendorfer CS, but from what I understand, the main difference is in the less refined cabinetry and the amount of care (voicing, preparation) the instruments recieve in the factory, accounting for a substantial price gap between the two. But basically, the CS and the "normal" Bösendorfer are the same instruments.

However, if Bechstein chose to do so, they will have had their reasons and I certainly am not in the position to express a judgement on this... just offering my two cents...

@ vippo:
From what I understand, the Bechstein Academy series differs from the C. Bechstein series in several points. One is that the structural parts, which are not necessarily connected to the acoustics as for example the frame (I know that some claim that all parts of a piano count, which to an extent probably is true) are manufactured in the Czech Republic by Bohemia (which Bechstein has an interest in). Second is a "lower" quality of the materials used as for example in the sound board. Thirdly, but probably most important, is that the instruments, when they are built/assembled in the Bechstein works in Grosshennersdorf (Saxony) get less time from the craftsmen as compared to the C. Bechstein series. Considering that the Academy series oomes in different sizes from the C. Bechstein series, they are also completely different instruments.
Whereas I think that the C.Bechstein (at least the ones I tried - the 167 and the 280) are wonderful instruments, I wouldn't say that about the Academy series.

[edited]
Concerning Rönisch I spoke with someone from the company on the phone. The dealer nearest to Munich where they have a grand on display is in Fürth (right next to Nürnberg), so about 220 km north of Munich - all their stock in the factory had just been sold to Australia, so they will need some time to make a few more ...(PM me for details)

I unfortunately currently have no information on August Förster.
[end edited]

It also appears that Hirsch have restocked with the Sauter Alpha (which is the only model they carry).
I understood at Fischer that they only carry the Chambre and Cabinett from Grotrian - the demand for the larger ones is just not there, but I might be wrong.


@ Wzkit: I was planning on trying out the Yamaha S and the Shigeru Kawai instruments, but they are only available, in principle, at very few dealers in Germany (Shigeru Kawai lists 6 or 7), and they don't even stock more than 1 instrument in some cases (Hirsch in Munich). The effort required to sample one in the class I am interested in is rather big. However, if I am ever somewhere where there is a dealer stocking them, then I will try them out. The choice of locally built instruments is already quite large, so it might be that they have a rather difficult stand here.

Markus

Hello,
closed to the Munich airport there is a piano shop named PIANO-SCHWEISSER.
Short time ago I bought there a grand piano BOESENDORFER 185.
Most of all I liked the BOESENDORFER 214, which was my most favourated model but unfortunately to big for me.
I also tried a YAMAHA S6, a really wounderfull grand piano, but to big for me as well.
That grand piano has been sold already but still in this show room for a few days.
This week I was talked again with Mr. Schweisser because of the 1. tuning and again we talked about my most favourated model the 214. It is still there and a new YAMAHA s6 is on the way.
A BOESI 170 will be delivered this week to a 5*hotel in Munich.
Well I was most satisfied with the advice, the service und especially about the excellent price.
Try to ask there about the BOESI 214 und the YAMI S6 - www.piano-schweisser.de

@ boesi+yami-fan

I have been at Piano Schweisser in Altdorf/Landshut, and have tried the 214. If he is getting an S6 in, I will probably go there when it is there - will ask him when it is due to arrive.

I have tried their 170 Bösendorfer as well - unfortunately, their grands were all a bit crammed in.

When I was there, they also had a nice Sauter Alpha.

I assume the prices there are better than the ones in Munich?

Hi Markus,
there is a August Förster dealer in Munich, www.piano-hall.de .
It's a funny location, like a garage located in the backyard.
When I was shopping for a grand, they had a 170, 190 and 215 on stock. Unfortunately, the room they're in is extremely small.

Besides that one, I think there is no other store in Munich...
If possible, I really recommend to try out the Yamaha S series, they are so much different from the C.

Good luck,
Peter (proud C3 owner in Schwabing)

...I forgot one:
Jürgen Pfitzer www.klavierwerkstatt.com has a Steingraeber 205 in his showroom / shop located in Munich - at least he used to a few months ago.

Pfitzer tuned my pianos a few times, nice guy.

-Peter

Hi Markus,

sounds like a similar story we had shopping
for a grand around 2 years ago in munich

(we wrote our report into this forum, see for:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/10081.html#000000 )

In case you want to play on our Steingraeber 205
here in Gräfelfing, southwest of munich,
send an email (mail@dieterb.de) or give a call
(089 2880 6194 or 089 2180 2317).

We still love the instrument!

Best,
Dieter Braun

Hi Peter and Dieter,

thank you very much for the shop recommendations. Two more shops to visit, wonderful (although I will definitely do the trip to Bayreuth to see the Steingräber factory - workshop might actually be the better word for it).

Dieter: I might take you up on the offer of trying your Steingräber. We live in Schwabing - but Gräfelfing is not too far, and it might be interesting to hear the same (das gleiche as opposed to dasselbe) instrument in different environments. Probably not before Easter, though. I don't think I'll find the time before then.

My greates fear is selecting an instrument whcih sounds beautiful and then realising at home that it sounds completely different in its new home.

Markus

What about Schimmel?
I recently bought the Vogel grand by Schimmel. A beautiful instrument!

This is a common,but often unfounded fear.

Unless the showroom has been specifically designed for optimal acoustics
[not uncommon in some places in North America...] most home situations make for actually better sound than at a dealer's.

This is where it also really matters form 'whom' you buy in the first place:
a conscientious and customer oriented dealer will always have your very best interest in mind.

Ask about his staff and meet them personally.

Better yet, let them explain and demonstrate to you what they can do with any given instrument - in any environment or situation.

Did I say my techs are my own best salesmen?

Norbert

Thanks for the tips, Norbert -- I actually don't think that any of the reputable dealers here will try to force a piano on me that won't suit my needs/won't be adequate for the room to go in. Sometimes it is, however, quite interesting, how much surroundings make for the sound of the instrument.

It turns out the the Klavierwerkstatt in Munich as recommended above have both the 168cm and the 205cm Steingräber grands on display to be tested -- will got there Thursday after work.

@vogel54 : I have tried two Schimmel grands (K 169 and K213), which were perfectly good pianos (much nicer tone - in my opinion - than the Kawais and Yamahas in the same showroom), but not quite up to the Sauter or Grotrian in combination of clarity of tone and singing ability. The action feels nice, but somehow the other instruments appealed to me more.
Whereas build quality is an objectve criterion, feel of action and perception of sound is much more subjective (how often have I heard from dealers that Kawai and Yamaha make the most precise actions in the world etc. - but I just don't like the feel of them, Kawai much less so even than Yamaha). In short - the Schimmel just didn't speak to me (as other instruments did).

Markus