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#581706 - 07/30/08 10:50 AM Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,166
pianist.ame Offline
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Singapore
Hi everyone,

Well, anyway before I left canada, I asked my teacher to assign me pieces. She did and said specifically that she wanted me to learn Beethoven's sonata op.10 no.2 before anything else, then highly recommended that I do a study on his works and learn a few others as well.
She did'nt specify which other ones, she just said not the last 4.

so I have decided to learn Waldstein, my reason being that I really love this sonata and would like to challenge myself, not to the extreme end but something that would be within my grasp even if it may take a little longer.

any advice as to how I should go about learning this sonata? this will be my hardest piece that i've learnt so far if I do suceed


Mastering:Chopin Etudes op.10 nos.8&12 and op.25 no.1, Chopin Scherzo no.4 in E major op.54, Mozart Sonata in B flat major K.333& Khachaturian Toccata
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#581707 - 07/30/08 11:23 AM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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Frank III Offline
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Spring Lake, MI
I've only done the first movement (and still working on it). The most difficult technical part for me is getting the left hand multi-note tremelos up to speed. In a couple spots I have played the final tremelo note with the right hand thumb so the left hand can jump down to the next note on 1. Has anyone else tried that?


Frank III
#581708 - 07/30/08 12:10 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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When I told my teacher I wanted to work on the Appassionata, he said, "well, you've studied 3 or 4 Beethoven Sonatas already - but you need to do a couple more before you're ready to tackle that one" so I'm working the Tempest right now. The only advice I have for the Waldstein or any other you might do first is to get the Henley edition. I have the entire collection in the Schirmer two-volume set and apparently the editorial markings in the Schirmer are not very good (taking a lot of inappropriate license), and some of the recommended fingerings are bizarre.


SantaFe_Player
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#581709 - 07/30/08 12:22 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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gooddog Offline
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I used to be a Schirmer fan until I discovered Henley. They are far superior to any other publisher I have used because the printing is very clear, they don't take a lot of liberties editing, the pages are thick and sturdy and the binding holds together well. I try to buy Henley for all composers. It's a bit expensive but, I think, worth it.


Best regards,

Deborah
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#581710 - 07/30/08 12:23 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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Janus K. Sachs Offline
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Betelgeuse, baby!
Henle, please.


Die Krebs gehn zurücke,
Die Stockfisch bleiben dicke,
Die Karpfen viel fressen,
Die Predigt vergessen.

Die Predigt hat g'fallen.
Sie bleiben wie alle.
#581711 - 07/30/08 12:32 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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Fleeting Visions Offline
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Champaign, IL
Quote
Originally posted by Janus Sachs:
Henle, please.
Pricey, but worth it.


Amateur Pianist, Scriabin Enthusiast, and Octave Demon
#581712 - 07/30/08 12:35 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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Janus K. Sachs Offline
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Janus K. Sachs  Offline
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Betelgeuse, baby!
Quote
Originally posted by Fleeting Visions:
Quote
Originally posted by Janus Sachs:
[b] Henle, please.
Pricey, but worth it. [/b]
I agree.

I never heard of "Henley" which two other posters mentioned.


Die Krebs gehn zurücke,
Die Stockfisch bleiben dicke,
Die Karpfen viel fressen,
Die Predigt vergessen.

Die Predigt hat g'fallen.
Sie bleiben wie alle.
#581713 - 07/30/08 12:49 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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Fleeting Visions Offline
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Champaign, IL
Quote
Originally posted by Janus Sachs:
Quote
Originally posted by Fleeting Visions:
[b]
Quote
Originally posted by Janus Sachs:
[b] Henle, please.
Pricey, but worth it. [/b]
I agree.

I never heard of "Henley" which two other posters mentioned. [/b]
I recommend the Liszt Etudes as a special deal- 40$, but the print is extremely clear and easy to read. Beautifully displayed.


Amateur Pianist, Scriabin Enthusiast, and Octave Demon
#581714 - 07/30/08 01:30 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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Morodiene Offline
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Amy,
If your teacher assigned you Op 10 No2, going straight to the Waldstein is a big leap. I would recommend studying some more of his earlier works before moving onto the later ones. Not only is the Waldstein more demanding technically, but also expressively. What other Beethoven have you done?


private piano/voice teacher FT

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#581715 - 07/30/08 01:46 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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BDB Offline
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Look at the Bagatelles. You might find something familiar there.

Actually, they are great exercises for his Sonatas. They range in difficulty from some of his easiest pieces to his most difficult, and they come in bite-sized pieces.


Semipro Tech
#581716 - 07/30/08 04:05 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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gooddog Offline
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Seattle area, WA
Quote
Originally posted by Janus Sachs:
Quote
Originally posted by Fleeting Visions:
[b]
Quote
Originally posted by Janus Sachs:
[b] Henle, please.
Pricey, but worth it. [/b]
I agree.

I never heard of "Henley" which two other posters mentioned. [/b]
Oops sorry you guys. Henle!


Best regards,

Deborah
#581717 - 07/30/08 04:56 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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Janus K. Sachs Offline
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Betelgeuse, baby!
I agree with Morodiene. Some sonatas to consider after doing Op. 10 #2 but before doing the Waldstein include (but not limited to) Op. 2 #2-3, Op. 7, Op. 10 #3, Op. 22, Op. 26, Op, 27 #1, Op. 28, Op. 31 #1-3, and Op. 81a.


Die Krebs gehn zurücke,
Die Stockfisch bleiben dicke,
Die Karpfen viel fressen,
Die Predigt vergessen.

Die Predigt hat g'fallen.
Sie bleiben wie alle.
#581718 - 07/30/08 07:25 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
Joined: May 2007
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pianist.ame Offline
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pianist.ame  Offline
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Singapore
Quote
Originally posted by Morodiene:
Amy,
If your teacher assigned you Op 10 No2, going straight to the Waldstein is a big leap. I would recommend studying some more of his earlier works before moving onto the later ones. Not only is the Waldstein more demanding technically, but also expressively. What other Beethoven have you done?
I have learnt the 1st&2nd movt of pathetique and op.2 no.2


Mastering:Chopin Etudes op.10 nos.8&12 and op.25 no.1, Chopin Scherzo no.4 in E major op.54, Mozart Sonata in B flat major K.333& Khachaturian Toccata
#581719 - 07/30/08 07:30 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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pianist.ame Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Janus Sachs:
I agree with Morodiene. Some sonatas to consider after doing Op. 10 #2 but before doing the Waldstein include (but not limited to) Op. 2 #2-3, Op. 7, Op. 10 #3, Op. 22, Op. 26, Op, 27 #1, Op. 28, Op. 31 #1-3, and Op. 81a.
actually i've started op.2 no.3 before but i switched it to op.2 no.2 and never finished it, i wonder if i should finish it now but I want to learn something else. I would love to learn op.10 no.3 but i'm afraid that I won't be able to cope with all the octaves especially in the 1st mvt


Mastering:Chopin Etudes op.10 nos.8&12 and op.25 no.1, Chopin Scherzo no.4 in E major op.54, Mozart Sonata in B flat major K.333& Khachaturian Toccata
#581720 - 07/30/08 08:22 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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Morodiene Offline
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Oh, Op. 2 No., 3 is great fun! And the 2nd mvt is gorgeous! So orchestral. The 3rd mvt has some challenging fast moving chords that would be great for you to work on. I think you should do that instead of the Waldstein for now.


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#581721 - 07/30/08 08:33 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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eric_626 Offline
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Vancouver, BC
Have you sightread through parts of the Waldstein to see how it feels under your hands? I remember doing this every once in a while for a very long time before I judged myself ready to try it.

Especially look at some of the hardest passages in the sonata. For me, the toughest bits were (no bar numbers because I don't have a score handy at my current location):

First movement:
- the second half of the development - pay attention to which notes need to be held in the left hand
- the reappearance of the second theme (and its related themes) in the recapitulation was trickier than in the exposition, the key change seems to make it less comfortable for my hands
- the fast scales in the coda

Third movement:
- all the parts where the theme has to be played above a trill (there's quite a few)
- the section in c-minor, that alternates between octaves in one hand and a fast triplet passage in the other - this was very troublesome for me
- the section before the coda, where the "B" theme returns but continues differently from its first appearance
- pretty much all of the coda, especially the infamous octave glissandi

If you feel confident that you can tackle these parts, I think you can handle the technical aspects of this work.

#581722 - 08/01/08 07:07 AM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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pianist.ame Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by eric_626:
Have you sightread through parts of the Waldstein to see how it feels under your hands? I remember doing this every once in a while for a very long time before I judged myself ready to try it.

Especially look at some of the hardest passages in the sonata. For me, the toughest bits were (no bar numbers because I don't have a score handy at my current location):

First movement:
- the second half of the development - pay attention to which notes need to be held in the left hand
- the reappearance of the second theme (and its related themes) in the recapitulation was trickier than in the exposition, the key change seems to make it less comfortable for my hands
- the fast scales in the coda

Third movement:
- all the parts where the theme has to be played above a trill (there's quite a few)
- the section in c-minor, that alternates between octaves in one hand and a fast triplet passage in the other - this was very troublesome for me
- the section before the coda, where the "B" theme returns but continues differently from its first appearance
- pretty much all of the coda, especially the infamous octave glissandi

If you feel confident that you can tackle these parts, I think you can handle the technical aspects of this work.
yes, I did actually a few times before but I could'nt handle it when it was just a matter of 3-4 months ago.
I tried that again yesterday and to my suprise I found it so much easier this time. Everything just seemed to fall under my hands, i did find a few spots difficult but i just worked at them and I could sense the improvement. My teacher told me last year when i was learning Beethoven's op.2 no.2 that i'm a natural at Beethoven but I found that hard to believe because at that point my technique was weaker.

Now I know what she means. I've actually heard her teaching this piece to another student quite a number of times and now i've seemed to just be able to pick it up.

Practised it for 3 and a half hrs today and i really enjoy working on it so i'm going to stick to it.


Mastering:Chopin Etudes op.10 nos.8&12 and op.25 no.1, Chopin Scherzo no.4 in E major op.54, Mozart Sonata in B flat major K.333& Khachaturian Toccata
#581723 - 08/01/08 05:44 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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ChopinChamp Offline
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Has anyone played the F# Major? I cant remember the opus number. But I know its his 24th one...


Currently Working:
Brahms: Intermezzo Op.119 no.3 in C

Currently Polishing:
Chopin Fantasie-Impromptu Op. 66
#581724 - 08/14/08 02:31 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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Quote
Originally posted by ChopinChamp:
Has anyone played the F# Major? I cant remember the opus number. But I know its his 24th one...
Op. 78. I just finished it and am hoping to perform it in recital this winter.


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#581725 - 08/14/08 03:31 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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Quote
Originally posted by DameMyra:
Op. 78. I just finished it and am hoping to perform it in recital this winter.
Funnily, that was the sonata I learned just prior to the Waldstein!

Good luck DameMyra, for some reason (mabe it was just me) I found the last movement of the Op. 78 a real b**** to memorize.


Jason
#581726 - 08/14/08 08:02 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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Quote
Originally posted by argerichfan:

Good luck DameMyra, for some reason (mabe it was just me) I found the last movement of the Op. 78 a real b**** to memorize.
OMG, me too. I thought the whole thing would be any easy learn, well, maybe not easy, but I didn't think the last movement would be such a royal pain. My problem was that very last group of alternating hand two-note connecting passage.


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#581727 - 08/15/08 08:14 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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Ben D. Offline
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Texas
Finger independence made all the difference in the world for me with this sonata.

I wouldn't recommend cheating on the left hand tremolos.

Do lots of slow work with small sections of the piece, making sure left hand and right hand are perfectly coordinated, etc.

For me, practicing with metronome proved to be almost essential. I have a bad tendency to rush in especially exciting passages, and this sonata has many of them.

Beethoven's pedal markings, if they happen to appear in your score unedited, are not to be taken particularly seriously because the instrument they were intended for is fairly dissimilar to the one you are playing on with regards to the damper pedal. He indicated many long pedals which, if played on a modern piano, simply create a lot of blur and mush. Especially in the rhythmic first movement, I would use pedal conservatively; in the more lyrical third movement, a good bit of pedal can be very effective.

Oh, and keeping wrists loose is a must as well! Especially in the third movement in the section before the coda when both hands have fast broken chords.

Best of luck! It's a wonderful piece.


now a resident of TNCR - www.coffee-room.com
#581728 - 08/15/08 11:36 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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I'm working on the Waldstein - and have been for many months. Reading through it, it seems much easier than it actually is. When you start increasing the tempo, it is much more demanding. On the other hand, I'm finding it very rewarding, and enjoying letting it simmer over time. I have pretty much 'have' the first movement so that I could perform it to a certain crow. I agree the L hand tremolos are hard, and also making everything even throughout. but it is the Rondo that is giving me fits right now. The section where there are triplets in both hands, is particularly difficult, when the left hand fingering switches to 5-1-3-2-3-1. It's a pain!!!

Interestingly - the last Beethoven I played was Op 10 #2. I've played others, though, but none this hard. Have fun!


Working on:
Chopin: Barcarolle
Schubert: Sonata D959
Rachmaninoff: Daisies
Lutoslawski: Paganini Variations for 2 pianos

#581729 - 08/16/08 05:14 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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Ben D. Offline
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You might try 5-1-2-1-2-1. That's what I play, and you are a teensy tiny bit closer with the jump using that fingering than you are with 5-1-3-2-3-1. But whatever's most comfortable for you is what works best smile


now a resident of TNCR - www.coffee-room.com
#581730 - 08/16/08 07:12 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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BruceD Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by CarolR:
[...] so that I could perform it to a certain crow.
There's an expression I've not heard before. Does it mean that you could do a reasonable - if not professional - performance presently?

Regards,


BruceD
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#581731 - 08/16/08 08:26 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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Bruce, I think she may have meant "crowd."

I'm such an insightful piano expert that sometimes it boggles my mind.

#581732 - 08/16/08 08:31 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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phonehome Offline
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And for something on topic:

I recently finished my work on the Waldstein, and it is quite possibly the most rewarding solo piece I've ever played. The most difficult part for me, by far, was the recap and coda of the 1st movement. The last movement, even the fast triplet passages in the left hand, fell under my hands reasonably well. As far as the octave glisses go, they just take some practice. On certain pianos I have to lick my pinkies during the diminished arpeggio right before them, but I've worked on making this action pretty inconspicuous.

#581733 - 08/16/08 09:18 PM Re: Any advice? I want to learn Beethoven's Waldstein sonata  
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Try to listen to the Baremboim masterclasse on this sonata (they are in youtube i think). It is trully an inpiration and gives some good advises. After that you won`t star from ZERO...


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