Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

Who's Online Now
68 registered members (Artur Gajewski, Animisha, bagovarna, Alex Hutor, anotherscott, Alex C, ando, barbaram, 12 invisible), 916 guests, and 10 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578484
01/20/05 07:09 AM
01/20/05 07:09 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,244
Cleveland, Ohio
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Siddhartha  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,244
Cleveland, Ohio
Quote
Originally posted by iamcanadian:
Reaper Man: The term ossia, in this case, means an alternate cadenza. The Ossia is the one with the massive chords while the original is the shorter one. Rachmaninoff wrote both.

In my score (G. Shirmer), the chordal version is written in, with the lighter version as the ossia.

And to an earlier remark that the lighter version is 'normally' played, I've ONLY heard the chordal version played in recordings; just once I heard the lighter version performed live, I found it weak.


I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578485
01/20/05 07:10 AM
01/20/05 07:10 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
Kreisler Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Kreisler  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
Yep!

Quote
Originally posted by BruceD:
Quote
Originally posted by Kreisler:
[b] BTW, the word "cadenza" simply means cadence - it directed the performer to improvise something that would bring the movement to a close. (Thus almost all Mozart cadenzas end on a dominant chord with the orchestra providing the resolution.)
... and in classical concertos, isn't the cadenza introduced by a 6/4 chord from the orchestra? [/b]


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578486
01/20/05 08:15 AM
01/20/05 08:15 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,254
Minneesooota
M
Mikester Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Mikester  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,254
Minneesooota
Liszt was a great improviser, probably the best of all time. In his concerts he would play his pieces and then call out to the crowd for "suggestions" - this could be anything, operatic tunes, childhood songs, classical pieces, symphones, whatever; he would improvise on these tunes to what seemed could go on endlessly.

The difference between Liszt and most other romantic composers was that Liszt was raised to be an improviser. His dad, Adam, was a pianist and improviser himself and before he taught Liszt any formal repertoire he taught the kid how to improvise. Later Czerny, who became Liszt's teacher, tried to correct the problem by forcing Liszt to practice only technique exercises - at which Liszt excelled - but he could never cancel the improvisational spirit of Franzi.

I doubt nowadays any classical pianists are raised as improvisers and then later converted to classical. The only thing close I can think of are converted jazz pianists.

Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578487
01/20/05 09:10 AM
01/20/05 09:10 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,232
Santiago, Chile
Ğanor Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ğanor  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,232
Santiago, Chile
CADENZA = LINK

that's all buddies


ss ao lr ue dt on si .u dq ar no on ra qd u. is no td eu rl oa ss
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578488
01/20/05 09:16 AM
01/20/05 09:16 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,232
Santiago, Chile
Ğanor Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ğanor  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,232
Santiago, Chile
Quote
Originally posted by NAK:
Quote
Originally posted by valarking:
[b]I was supposed to hit the D, but I hit an E.
n00b [/b]
LOL

UBER n00b! pwned by teh piano


i think mozart was the ultimate improviser, in most cases people went to the conceros to see HIM improvise for minutes.
I think the cadenzas that we see on the editions are there for people who can't improvise, cause, for sure he never repeated a cadenza on a recital. However, we can't improvise like Mozart, and it's honest to recognize such, so it's OK to borrow "his" improvisation. But, it's equally correct IMO to create pwn cadenzas (as long as is not Horowiked's tyle f )


ss ao lr ue dt on si .u dq ar no on ra qd u. is no td eu rl oa ss
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578489
01/20/05 09:20 AM
01/20/05 09:20 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 78
Dubious Offline
Full Member
Dubious  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 78
Are there well-known cases of jazz pianists that converted to classical? Just wondering... I guess Gulda played both but he was first a classical pianist if I remember correctly.

Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578490
01/20/05 09:23 AM
01/20/05 09:23 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,467
Phoenix, AZ
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Nina  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,467
Phoenix, AZ
Keith Jarrett has recorded some Bach, maybe some others. It's "OK," nothing great, IMO. (The Bach, that is.)

Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578491
01/20/05 09:24 AM
01/20/05 09:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,898
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,898
Oakland
A cadenza was originally an opportunity for improvisation at the closing cadence of a movement. There are other opportunities at fermatas which serve as lead-ins to sections of a work. Cadenzas may be written out, especially when they are for more than one performer, and as time went on and people were less able to improvise them.

There are cadenzas in other works than concertos. There is one in Mozart's Quintet, and in his Sonata in B-flat, K 333.


Semipro Tech
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578492
01/20/05 09:30 AM
01/20/05 09:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,898
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,898
Oakland
Lots of jazz musicians play classical, but not necessarily in concert. (I hear them do it before the shows.)


Semipro Tech
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578493
01/20/05 09:34 AM
01/20/05 09:34 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,244
Cleveland, Ohio
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Siddhartha  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,244
Cleveland, Ohio
Quote
Originally posted by Dubious:
Are there well-known cases of jazz pianists that converted to classical? Just wondering... I guess Gulda played both but he was first a classical pianist if I remember correctly.
Not a pianist, but Wynton Marsalis has won a grammy for both classical and jazz. I read an interview with him once where he said peforming classical is easier than performing jazz, because with classical even if you dont play it well, it still sounds good because at least the right notes are there.

I was shocked to hear him say this. My attitude is the exact opposite (I've not performed jazz, but have extensively performed blues and improvisatory rock, and classical of course). The improv is driven by impulse and is therefore inherently convincing. Classical is not; the notes are given and the performer must reverse engineer the impulse in order to make it effective and convincing. I find this is so rarely accomplished at the student level, and even often missing at the professional level. (incidentally, i think the oft lack of accomplishing this largely contributes to the lack of popularity of classical music; when its done well, its easy to appreciate)

But who am I to say Wynton doesnt understand performance? wink


I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578494
01/20/05 09:43 AM
01/20/05 09:43 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 78
Dubious Offline
Full Member
Dubious  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 78
I guess I wasn't clear enough, by "converted" I meant *really* converted, switched to giving classical concerts, etc. Anyone?

Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578495
01/20/05 10:48 AM
01/20/05 10:48 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 39
T
thepianist Offline
Full Member
thepianist  Offline
Full Member
T

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 39
Quote
Originally posted by iamcanadian:
Reaper Man: The term ossia, in this case, means an alternate cadenza. The Ossia is the one with the massive chords while the original is the shorter one. Rachmaninoff wrote both.

There is only one major cadenza section, which is in the first movement. But there are a few other sections which could technically be marked as cadenzas(I.E. the descending chords at the very end of the 3rd movement)
They are all marked as cadenzas in the score.

Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578496
01/20/05 03:54 PM
01/20/05 03:54 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 198
Beltsville, MD
Sketchee Offline
Full Member
Sketchee  Offline
Full Member

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 198
Beltsville, MD
It used to be that improvisation was taught and now this rarely is the case. Have any of your piano teachers or classes given any lessons on the subject? Even on a basic level?

But we all still enjoy and marvel at the accounts of improvisational skill from every major musician from before our time. ...I was going to say 20th century, but even in the early decades of the period it was common. Ravel and others accounted for this as classical circles trying to seperate itself from jazz which at the time used the same instruments and theory. Author Eileen Southern notes the irony of this as avantegarde classical and jazz have become virtually indistinguishable.

Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578497
01/20/05 08:04 PM
01/20/05 08:04 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 283
Tokyo, Japan
F
Frungy Offline
Full Member
Frungy  Offline
Full Member
F

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 283
Tokyo, Japan
I thought Rachmaninoff wrote the chord cadenza first, then decided it was too climatic so he wrote the fast cadenza. This became the standard, but the "ossia" cadenza was the original.

Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578498
01/21/05 10:24 AM
01/21/05 10:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,338
Switzerland
M
mrenaud Offline
1000 Post Club Member
mrenaud  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,338
Switzerland
The other way round.

He wrote the fast cadenza first, then the chordal cadenza. But then he felt that the second cadenza was too much an ending in itself, so he always played the original one.


I have an ice cream. I cannot mail it, for it will melt.
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578499
01/21/05 10:28 AM
01/21/05 10:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,244
Cleveland, Ohio
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Siddhartha  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,244
Cleveland, Ohio
wow! Again, i've almost ALWAYS heard the chord cadenza played, and almost never the other. Its so much more exciting, I think.


I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Petrof
(ad)
Sweetwater - Keyboards
Sweetwater
ad
Jazz Piano Online
Jazz Piano Lessons Online

New Topics - Multiple Forums
Piano fiction
by Animisha. 01/18/19 06:25 AM
Kawai F-301 problem
by bagovarna. 01/18/19 04:46 AM
The moods of my sheet music "wish list"
by Sibylle. 01/18/19 02:25 AM
Kimball Bösendorfer?
by squidbot. 01/18/19 01:41 AM
Which headphones to test DPs?
by Novembre. 01/17/19 11:35 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics189,638
Posts2,783,058
Members92,145
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Please Support Our Advertisers
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

PianoTeq Petrof
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2