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What exactly is a cadenza? #578464
01/19/05 06:49 PM
01/19/05 06:49 PM
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I know most of you are currently saying "Aghayukahhh, everyone knows what a cadenza is!!" but myself, being the ignorant pianist that I am ,have never heard of one (or at least refered to by this word) before I came to this forum. I always here things about the Rach3 or Hungarian Rhapsody no.2 cadenza but I never know what part of the piece is being talked about. Definition?

Thanks a million.

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Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578465
01/19/05 07:12 PM
01/19/05 07:12 PM
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I think it's that place in a concerto where the orchestra pipes down and lets the soloist shine.


"My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own image, to be servants of their human interests." - Santayana
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578466
01/19/05 07:14 PM
01/19/05 07:14 PM
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"cadenza noun: a brilliant solo passage occuring near the end of a piece of music." -- http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cadenza

Usually you find a cadenza towards the end (sometimes in the middle - see Mendelssohn) of a concerto. The orchestra plays with the piano, you know, but then the cadenza is a solo. (There are often short solos in the concertos, but the cadenzas are usually accompanied by the conductor letting down his baton, symbolicly announcing the significance of what the pianist is doing - or, in a violin concerto, what the violinist is doing, etc.) It used to be that the performer would improvise the solo cadenza, but nowadays most performers play a composed cadenza by the composer, another musician, the performer himself, or whoever.

There are many cadenzas in Liszt's solo works - these are just "brilliant", fast, impressive, difficult passages that show off the pianist's talent. I've heard people talk casually of just leaving out the cadenzas in these solo pieces, but don't even think about leaving them out of concertos! Take all the solo time you can get! laugh


Sam
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578467
01/19/05 07:16 PM
01/19/05 07:16 PM
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if you read the music for the pieces your talking about youll see the spots where the cadenza is to be added...it will say "ad lib" or "cadenza ad lib" or "ad libitum" i think is the full word which is also sometimes written...and this is where the pianist is able to add pretty much whatever they want usually it will contain some variations on the melody the piece but its really not very limited as far as what you can add in...sometimes you can find editions of music with cadenzas written in that were done by famous composers or pianists for example the Rachmaninoff cadenza for Liszts 2nd hungarian rhapsody in C-sharp minor..its up to the performer to include a cadenza..many are not capable of creating a cadenza that would measure up enough to the piece so tht it would fit...i know im not at this point.


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Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578468
01/19/05 07:37 PM
01/19/05 07:37 PM
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It is a low cabinet, usually of walnut, found in offices of the 1960s.

Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578469
01/19/05 08:14 PM
01/19/05 08:14 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by kenny:
It is a low cabinet, usually of walnut, found in offices of the 1960s.
laugh laugh laugh

And one of Dr. Seuss' favorite pieces of furniture! (at least the three-handled moss covered family kind...)

Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578470
01/19/05 08:22 PM
01/19/05 08:22 PM
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Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote
Originally posted by pianojerome:
It used to be that the performer would improvise the solo cadenza, but nowadays most performers play a composed cadenza by the composer, another musician, the performer himself, or whoever.

I always wondered why this is no longer the case. Were musicians "back in th' day" just so much more naturally talented than the musicians today that they're all walking around improvising? Just like with basso continuo from the Baroque, no one improvises anymore.

Seems in all other disciplines, performance advances from era to era, why in this one niche, its dried up and blown away? I imagine its probably because the idiom in which the improvisation occured was current then, and more innately understood by the musicians of the time. Whereas today, its all very learned as part of music history.

Just like today, rock and jazz musicians improvise as their primary mode of performance. Makes one wonder, a hundred years from now, if Voodoo Chile is still being gigged, will the guitarist improvise the solo, or will he perform either the Hendrix or SRV solos as transcribed in the literature. heh


I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578471
01/19/05 09:00 PM
01/19/05 09:00 PM
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I'm not good enough to improvise my own cadenzas. Besides, I like Grieg's cadenza! Why should I improvise my own? (Maybe someday I will try on other concertos, though. Hey, it'll be my gimick. laugh )

I have a wonderful recording of the violinist Nathan Milstein performing the Beethoven and Brahms violin concertos with William Steinberg / PSO. He composed his own cadenzas for the concertos, but I don't think he improvised them at the concerts. At first, I thought for sure Beethoven had written the cadenza to the Beethoven concerto - Milstein did such a fantastic job writing it! I read in the liner notes, though, that Milstein was one of the last great violinists to follow this tradition of writing cadenzas.


Sam
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578472
01/19/05 09:49 PM
01/19/05 09:49 PM
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The practice of improvising cadenzas was at its heights in the classical period. Back then, musicians studied composition and improvisation along with performance. Nowadays, technique is what most people spend their time on, and composition is no longer a well-codified art. (It used to be that everyone learned counterpoint and figured bass realization as a foundation for composition study. Nowadays, people just write whatever they want...)


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578473
01/19/05 10:22 PM
01/19/05 10:22 PM
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some movement in a concerto could have more than one cadenza, one in the middle and the other near the end. some pianists perform their own cadenza but most perform some famous cadenzas by some famous composers. for example, Beethoven wrote a cadenza for Mozart's K466 concerto 1st movement, and most pianists play that one usually, which i wish they all do.

Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578474
01/19/05 10:28 PM
01/19/05 10:28 PM
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Rachmaninov wrote two different cadenzas for the first movement of his 3rd concerto - one chordy, and the other with a lot of quick runs and "thin" passages. The latter is more often performed, but both are good. I've only heard Andsnes perform the chordy cadenza.


Sam
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578475
01/19/05 10:49 PM
01/19/05 10:49 PM
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Iowa City, IA
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BTW, the word "cadenza" simply means cadence - it directed the performer to improvise something that would bring the movement to a close. (Thus almost all Mozart cadenzas end on a dominant chord with the orchestra providing the resolution.)


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578476
01/19/05 10:52 PM
01/19/05 10:52 PM
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pianojerome: You need to hear Rafael Orozco's recording. Nobody has played the Ossia as well as he does in his recording. It is on Philips along with the other Rachmaninoff Concertos for $15.00. The other performances on the disc are first-rate as well.

LINK

It's a shame he died so young. frown


♪♫♪♫
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578477
01/19/05 10:55 PM
01/19/05 10:55 PM
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I once improvised on a cadenza. I was supposed to hit the D, but I hit an E. Yup. I even made it look like my hand slipped to show off. laugh

Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578478
01/19/05 11:39 PM
01/19/05 11:39 PM
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Canada
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Quote
Originally posted by valarking:
I was supposed to hit the D, but I hit an E.
n00b

Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578479
01/20/05 12:51 AM
01/20/05 12:51 AM
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Rach 3 has like 3 cadenzas in the first and third movements?

Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578480
01/20/05 03:28 AM
01/20/05 03:28 AM
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Wait, a minute, I only know of the 1 cadenza in Rachmaninoffs 3rd Concerto - (I haven't heard it in a while) The Cadenza that is about 10 mins in to the 1st Movement...

One question PianoJerome... Rachmaninoff didn't write 2 cadenzas, he wrote the cadenza which was chordy and then wrote an ossia which was the quick runs.

Isn't it??? It is an ossia? What exactly is an ossia?

Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578481
01/20/05 04:09 AM
01/20/05 04:09 AM
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Reaper Man: The term ossia, in this case, means an alternate cadenza. The Ossia is the one with the massive chords while the original is the shorter one. Rachmaninoff wrote both.

There is only one major cadenza section, which is in the first movement. But there are a few other sections which could technically be marked as cadenzas(I.E. the descending chords at the very end of the 3rd movement)


♪♫♪♫
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578482
01/20/05 05:46 AM
01/20/05 05:46 AM
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Posts: 21,260
Victoria, BC
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Quote
Originally posted by Kreisler:
BTW, the word "cadenza" simply means cadence - it directed the performer to improvise something that would bring the movement to a close. (Thus almost all Mozart cadenzas end on a dominant chord with the orchestra providing the resolution.)
... and in classical concertos, isn't the cadenza introduced by a 6/4 chord from the orchestra?


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Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578483
01/20/05 07:35 AM
01/20/05 07:35 AM
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Can non-concerto pieces not have cadenzas? For example, Mozart Fantasy in D minor has two short moments when everything stops and there is a cascade of tons of tiny notes down the page, to be played at the will of the performer.

Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578484
01/20/05 08:09 AM
01/20/05 08:09 AM
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Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote
Originally posted by iamcanadian:
Reaper Man: The term ossia, in this case, means an alternate cadenza. The Ossia is the one with the massive chords while the original is the shorter one. Rachmaninoff wrote both.

In my score (G. Shirmer), the chordal version is written in, with the lighter version as the ossia.

And to an earlier remark that the lighter version is 'normally' played, I've ONLY heard the chordal version played in recordings; just once I heard the lighter version performed live, I found it weak.


I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578485
01/20/05 08:10 AM
01/20/05 08:10 AM
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Iowa City, IA
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Yep!

Quote
Originally posted by BruceD:
Quote
Originally posted by Kreisler:
[b] BTW, the word "cadenza" simply means cadence - it directed the performer to improvise something that would bring the movement to a close. (Thus almost all Mozart cadenzas end on a dominant chord with the orchestra providing the resolution.)
... and in classical concertos, isn't the cadenza introduced by a 6/4 chord from the orchestra? [/b]


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578486
01/20/05 09:15 AM
01/20/05 09:15 AM
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Liszt was a great improviser, probably the best of all time. In his concerts he would play his pieces and then call out to the crowd for "suggestions" - this could be anything, operatic tunes, childhood songs, classical pieces, symphones, whatever; he would improvise on these tunes to what seemed could go on endlessly.

The difference between Liszt and most other romantic composers was that Liszt was raised to be an improviser. His dad, Adam, was a pianist and improviser himself and before he taught Liszt any formal repertoire he taught the kid how to improvise. Later Czerny, who became Liszt's teacher, tried to correct the problem by forcing Liszt to practice only technique exercises - at which Liszt excelled - but he could never cancel the improvisational spirit of Franzi.

I doubt nowadays any classical pianists are raised as improvisers and then later converted to classical. The only thing close I can think of are converted jazz pianists.

Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578487
01/20/05 10:10 AM
01/20/05 10:10 AM
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Santiago, Chile
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CADENZA = LINK

that's all buddies


ss ao lr ue dt on si .u dq ar no on ra qd u. is no td eu rl oa ss
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578488
01/20/05 10:16 AM
01/20/05 10:16 AM
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Santiago, Chile
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Quote
Originally posted by NAK:
Quote
Originally posted by valarking:
[b]I was supposed to hit the D, but I hit an E.
n00b [/b]
LOL

UBER n00b! pwned by teh piano


i think mozart was the ultimate improviser, in most cases people went to the conceros to see HIM improvise for minutes.
I think the cadenzas that we see on the editions are there for people who can't improvise, cause, for sure he never repeated a cadenza on a recital. However, we can't improvise like Mozart, and it's honest to recognize such, so it's OK to borrow "his" improvisation. But, it's equally correct IMO to create pwn cadenzas (as long as is not Horowiked's tyle f )


ss ao lr ue dt on si .u dq ar no on ra qd u. is no td eu rl oa ss
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578489
01/20/05 10:20 AM
01/20/05 10:20 AM
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Are there well-known cases of jazz pianists that converted to classical? Just wondering... I guess Gulda played both but he was first a classical pianist if I remember correctly.

Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578490
01/20/05 10:23 AM
01/20/05 10:23 AM
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Phoenix, AZ
Nina Offline
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Keith Jarrett has recorded some Bach, maybe some others. It's "OK," nothing great, IMO. (The Bach, that is.)

Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578491
01/20/05 10:24 AM
01/20/05 10:24 AM
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A cadenza was originally an opportunity for improvisation at the closing cadence of a movement. There are other opportunities at fermatas which serve as lead-ins to sections of a work. Cadenzas may be written out, especially when they are for more than one performer, and as time went on and people were less able to improvise them.

There are cadenzas in other works than concertos. There is one in Mozart's Quintet, and in his Sonata in B-flat, K 333.


Semipro Tech
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578492
01/20/05 10:30 AM
01/20/05 10:30 AM
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Lots of jazz musicians play classical, but not necessarily in concert. (I hear them do it before the shows.)


Semipro Tech
Re: What exactly is a cadenza? #578493
01/20/05 10:34 AM
01/20/05 10:34 AM
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Cleveland, Ohio
Siddhartha Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Dubious:
Are there well-known cases of jazz pianists that converted to classical? Just wondering... I guess Gulda played both but he was first a classical pianist if I remember correctly.
Not a pianist, but Wynton Marsalis has won a grammy for both classical and jazz. I read an interview with him once where he said peforming classical is easier than performing jazz, because with classical even if you dont play it well, it still sounds good because at least the right notes are there.

I was shocked to hear him say this. My attitude is the exact opposite (I've not performed jazz, but have extensively performed blues and improvisatory rock, and classical of course). The improv is driven by impulse and is therefore inherently convincing. Classical is not; the notes are given and the performer must reverse engineer the impulse in order to make it effective and convincing. I find this is so rarely accomplished at the student level, and even often missing at the professional level. (incidentally, i think the oft lack of accomplishing this largely contributes to the lack of popularity of classical music; when its done well, its easy to appreciate)

But who am I to say Wynton doesnt understand performance? wink


I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?
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