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Originally posted by keyboardklutz: Yes, but there are pianists out there who not only think they can alter the tone of an individual notes BUT TEACH WAYS OF DOING SO. Sadly Tobias Matthay was one. Say the pianists who do teach ways of altering tone were tested: If their backs were turned to a piano and different notes were played and they could here a difference in the sound and they chose to call that a change in tone, wouldn't that make everything you are saying wrong? (btw i have already done this very thing in the past and people who do advocate changing tone can hear a difference between a "tense sound" and a "relaxed sound")
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It is contrary to the laws of physics. Period.
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This was posted on the forum a while back, but i think it applies to this discussion. http://www.ofai.at/cgi-bin/tr-online?number+2004-02 Their research shows that musicians do hear something different depending on touch, though these differences cannot be heard when the musicians can't hear the type of touch used; however, if musicians are hearing the difference and choose to call this difference a change in tone then that is completely alright.
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Originally posted by keyboardklutz: Yes, but there are pianists out there who not only think they can alter the tone of an individual notes BUT TEACH WAYS OF DOING SO. Sadly Tobias Matthay was one. Also, since evidence shows that many musicians are able to discern a difference in the touch the pianist uses, that means that the people teaching ways of altering the tone are legitimately teaching things that others are capable of hearing. Not so sad anymore, is it?
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I suggest you find your nearest physicist and tell him/her the good news!
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If that's sarcasm, it doesn't convey very well in text...
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No. If you've discovered a new force, I think the world needs to know.
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Have you actually been reading what I have been writing? I have said nothing about "discovering a new force"...
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If you are able to change the tone of an individual note. You have discovered a force unknown to mankind.
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Originally posted by keyboardklutz: If you are able to change the tone of an individual note. You have discovered a force unknown to mankind. Again, i am saying that you are not changing the actual tone of the note, but the sound of the finger striking the key creates the illusion that there is a change in the tone. If you actually took a look at my evidence, done by physicists (note that I have discovered nothing), you would see that half of the tested musicians could tell whether a single note was pressed or struck. Again, if musicians choose to call this difference a change in tone, then it is fine to do so.
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you would see that half of the tested musicians could tell whether a single note was pressed or struck. Your paper says musicians can hear the sound of a key being struck. That's all. Not the note.
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Hmmm, i think we may have varying definitions of the word "tone". If by tone you mean frequency of the pitch, then yes, we can agree that the frequency is not going to change at all, though the amplitude might. When i say tone, i am talking about the character of the sound or pitch. Take a look at the graphs by 2.2 in that paper showing the difference in amplitude between a struck key and a pressed key. I am saying that the character of the sound (tone) is perceived to be different just because of the sound of the finger hitting the key (the little lines shown before the actual frequency of the pitch is shown on the "RB struck" graph).
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The sound of the finger hitting the key is just that. And, as you say, happens before the tone.
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So, Klutz, are you saying that you can't tell the difference between a key being struck with a straight finger pointed down, sunk into, or gripped, just because all that is happening is the hammer is striking the string?
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Originally posted by keyboardklutz: The sound of the finger hitting the key is just that. And, as you say, happens before the tone. Well, i am saying that the sound of the finger hitting the key happens before the pitch is heard, but the sound of the finger hitting the key combined with the sound of the pitch create the character or quality of the pitch, or "tone". Are you using "pitch" and "tone" interchangeably?
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It can't combine as it's over before the pitch begins.
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Well, going by the graph, it looks like the sounds overlap.
Musicians are hearing a difference between the two. It's just a matter of whether you choose to call this difference a difference in tone or not.
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You cannot extrapolate what is going on in the musician's brains from this experiment. The facts show the musicians could hear the striking. Why must it be anything more?
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I am just saying that if musicians choose to call this striking a "change in tone", then they have every right to do so.
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They can call it what they like. Your study was a very narrow one - can a struck key be differentiated from a pressed one. It is obvious from the study that if you listen for the strike you can tell the difference. The study comes to no other conclusion.
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