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5th finger
#560974 03/06/08 08:54 PM
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Although I don't have a weak 4th and 5th finger trill in my right hand, my goal has been to increase it so it equals the trill of my 1st and 2nd fingers. I have been working on it for a while now. I did make it increase a little bit, but I couldnt(and still cannot) make it go any faster than that.

How do you make your 4th finger and 5th finger trill equal?

Re: 5th finger
#560975 03/06/08 09:05 PM
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It's a long, long story. I've told it to several members on this forum via private message. I know JerryS88 is one of them.
I'm too busy to write it out again-it takes several hours.
You can make your 4th and 5th finger trill as fast as any other combination of fingers. It should take you about 2 or 3 years.
If you are really serious and you don't screw around you can actually do it. I'm not joking.
Maybe ask Jerry to cut-and-paste. I'm sorry, I can't type it all out again. It would take me hours.
It cost me $5000 and 2 years of my life to learn, but it sure as heck was worth it!
With patience and dedication you can do it too. I promise.

Re: 5th finger
#560976 03/06/08 09:13 PM
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I'm sure if you pay Mr. Kitty the $5,000, he'll find the time to type it out for you (j/k). smile

Re: 5th finger
#560977 03/06/08 09:25 PM
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That is irritating but I can`t quite put my finger on why?


Will
Re: 5th finger
#560978 03/06/08 11:32 PM
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I would really like to find out as well....perhaps a brief summary mr_kitty?


"I was obliged to be industrious. Whoever is equally industrious will succeed equally well."

J.S. Bach
Re: 5th finger
#560979 03/07/08 12:26 AM
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If he can trill that fast with his 4th and 5th finger, why should it take him him so long to type it out?

Tomasino


"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10

Re: 5th finger
#560980 03/07/08 12:34 AM
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It's not a magical cure-all for developing uberfast 4/5 trills overnight.
It's an organized technical training regime.

Re: 5th finger
#560981 03/07/08 03:47 AM
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Hmm... are you talking about Isidor Phillip?

That's how I improved 4-5 trills.

Phillip has to be done in moderation, else injury may result.

Re: 5th finger
#560982 03/07/08 06:55 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
It's not a magical cure-all for developing uberfast 4/5 trills overnight.
It's an organized technical training regime.
I'd like to hear. Could you please type it out for a PM to me? I've been playing 10/2, and it's been valuable, but what you are saying should be of much greater value.

Daniel


Amateur Pianist, Scriabin Enthusiast, and Octave Demon
Re: 5th finger
#560983 03/07/08 01:11 PM
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Me too.

Meanwhile here's my exercise: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Zx6hCtGaO3U

Worth how many Mr_Kitty-hours of typing?

Hold on. Is the the same Mr_Kitty who uploaded a Bach P & F?

Ah.., found it:
Quote
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
It's your trills - they're a bit ungainly. That's why finger strength is so important. They should be your point of sparkle. Also they have no closing notes.

Re: 5th finger
#560984 03/07/08 01:17 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
It should take you about 2 or 3 years.
Exactly.

Re: 5th finger
#560985 03/07/08 11:54 PM
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Here's an exercise from the great Adele Marcus:
put your thumb on the wood below the keys. With your RH, stretch the 4th finger out toward the fallboard, not up, then play G above middle C with the fourth finger strongly, and lift the pinky finger when you do that. Then, play the C above that ( a Perfect Fourth), and then lift the fourth finger again and play G-sharp, and lift the pinky, and then play C-sharp a fourth above the G-sharp. Continue on this way, climbing by half steps and separating the 4th and 5th fingers by Perfect fourths. Do same for LH, ascending, since it is easier to do that way. Put LH thumb on wood below keys, and start with pinky finger on G-natural (11 keys below middle c), and then 4th finger stretched out, not up, while pinky is in key, and then play 4th finger on C-natural a Perfect 4th above that G, etc. Just do 4 or 5 of these a day, no more. Shake the wrist out after.

Re: 5th finger
#560986 03/08/08 12:07 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by JBiegel:
Here's an exercise from the great Adele Marcus:
put your thumb on the wood below the keys. With your RH, stretch the 4th finger out toward the fallboard, not up, then play G above middle C with the fourth finger strongly, and lift the pinky finger when you do that. Then, play the C above that ( a Perfect Fourth), and then lift the fourth finger again and play G-sharp, and lift the pinky, and then play C-sharp a fourth above the G-sharp. Continue on this way, climbing by half steps and separating the 4th and 5th fingers by Perfect fourths. Do same for LH, ascending, since it is easier to do that way. Put LH thumb on wood below keys, and start with pinky finger on G-natural (11 keys below middle c), and then 4th finger stretched out, not up, while pinky is in key, and then play 4th finger on C-natural a Perfect 4th above that G, etc. Just do 4 or 5 of these a day, no more. Shake the wrist out after.
I find this really interesting, Jeff - really another form of holding exercise where one or more fingers are held down, in this case the thumb on the wood below the keys, while others get exercised. I have discovered how amazingly effective holding exercises are at developing the ability to move each finger independently and with great power since I started doing some six months ago. I believe it's because by holding one or more fingers down you are eliminating any rotation and weight transference from the equation - "forcing" the finger to be moved on it's own, i.e. in "isolation." I never would have believed how far you can develop each finger this way, especially the weakest 4th and 5th. I can now trill the 4th and 5th half-decently - a big improvement for me, although I have a ways to go and would not show it off to anyone just yet.

Re: 5th finger
#560987 03/08/08 01:11 AM
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Jerry, where's the PM from Mr_K? We're all waiting to cash in.

Re: 5th finger
#560988 03/08/08 08:27 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by JBiegel:
Here's an exercise from the great Adele Marcus:
put your thumb on the wood below the keys. With your RH, stretch the 4th finger out toward the fallboard, not up, then play G above middle C with the fourth finger strongly, and lift the pinky finger when you do that. Then, play the C above that ( a Perfect Fourth), and then lift the fourth finger again and play G-sharp, and lift the pinky, and then play C-sharp a fourth above the G-sharp. Continue on this way, climbing by half steps and separating the 4th and 5th fingers by Perfect fourths. Do same for LH, ascending, since it is easier to do that way. Put LH thumb on wood below keys, and start with pinky finger on G-natural (11 keys below middle c), and then 4th finger stretched out, not up, while pinky is in key, and then play 4th finger on C-natural a Perfect 4th above that G, etc. Just do 4 or 5 of these a day, no more. Shake the wrist out after.
This is one of Horowitz' stretching exercises for the 4th and 5th fingers.

It was Byron Janis who showed it to Adele Marcus, according to "Adele Marcus, Mechanism of Advanced Technique", August 1971 Clavier.


Mel


"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get, only what you are expecting to give, which is everything. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn
Re: 5th finger
#560989 03/08/08 08:48 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by JBiegel:
... then play G above middle C with the fourth finger strongly, and lift the pinky finger when you do that. Then, play the C above that ( a Perfect Fourth), and then lift the fourth finger again and play G-sharp, and lift the pinky, and then play C-sharp a fourth above the G-sharp.
Let me see if I get this right. Play with the 4th finger, hold it there, play with the 5th finger. Then hold down the 5th, play with the 4th on the next key up. Hold down the 4th, play with the 5th on the next key up, and so on. Am I about right?

Re: 5th finger
#560990 03/08/08 09:56 AM
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Yes, of course it's the Horowitz exercise--I figured everyone would have known that by now. It's been reprinted in Clavier a few times, as well as in Dean Elder's 'Pianists at Play' book. Clavier is printing an interview with me in the April edition. Perhaps I should include this one in addition to the dminished seventh chord stretch. Space is limited, though.

OK--put your thumb on the wood below the keys. Raise all other fingers toward the sky on an angle, of course not straight up. Drop the fourth finger into the G, and, at the same time, then lift the 5th finger as the 4th is curved into the key, and count slowly 1--2-- per key. Drop 5th finger into the C above that, and stretch 4th finger again as the 5th is in the key. Then play 4th finger half-step higher on G-sharp, stretch 5th up and then play 5th on C-sharp above that. Etc.

Re: 5th finger
#560991 03/08/08 11:41 AM
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These "holding exercises" are very similar to ones in the Isidor Phillip books I mentioned.

Re: 5th finger
#560992 03/08/08 12:03 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by whippen boy:
These "holding exercises" are very similar to ones in the Isidor Phillip books I mentioned.
I noticed that too. In fact my piano teacher was a student of his, and gave me some of these exercises to work on in moderation. I still do these today along with the Schmitt exercises for finger independence.

John


Current works in progress:

Beethoven Sonata Op. 10 No. 2 in F, Haydn Sonata Hoboken XVI:41, Bach French Suite No. 5 in G BWV 816

Current instruments: Schimmel-Vogel 177T grand, Roland LX-17 digital, and John Lyon unfretted Saxon clavichord.
Re: 5th finger
#560993 03/08/08 12:15 PM
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Where is the thumb - across from C?

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