Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
What's Hot!!
Mr. PianoWorld - the full interview
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


Who's Online Now
64 registered members (Beemer, cathryn999, Beowulf, Balezin Dmitry, amad23, clothearednincompo, Alex C, Agent88, 16 invisible), 1,390 guests, and 6 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557400
04/11/07 02:42 PM
04/11/07 02:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 30
California
eastcountypiano Offline OP
Full Member
eastcountypiano  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 30
California
Can someone tell me the value of a 1/2 rest in 3/4 time. While we are on the subject the value for a whole rest, too.


Jerrie, Piano Teacher
http://www.eastcountymusicstudio.com
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items
Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557401
04/11/07 03:20 PM
04/11/07 03:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 921
P
phonehome Offline
500 Post Club Member
phonehome  Offline
500 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 921
Well you won't see a whole rest in 3/4 time.

The value of the half rest is the same as if it were in 4/4 time. The half rest is worth two beats.

Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557402
04/11/07 03:25 PM
04/11/07 03:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,701
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,701
Oakland
More correctly (but meaning the same in this case), a half rest is as long as a half note, or two quarter notes. It is half a whole rest.

A half rest is only one beat in alla breve.


Semipro Tech
Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557403
04/11/07 03:29 PM
04/11/07 03:29 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 921
P
phonehome Offline
500 Post Club Member
phonehome  Offline
500 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 921
nm

Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557404
04/11/07 03:51 PM
04/11/07 03:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
Kreisler Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Kreisler  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
Half rests aren't used in 3/4 time. You always write two quarter rests.

Whole rests are used, but they take the value of one full measure.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557405
04/12/07 03:56 AM
04/12/07 03:56 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 754
Belgium
J
JohnEB Offline
500 Post Club Member
JohnEB  Offline
500 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 754
Belgium
Quote
Originally posted by Kreisler:
Half rests aren't used in 3/4 time. You always write two quarter rests.

Whole rests are used, but they take the value of one full measure.
On the contrary, 'half-note' (what I would call minim) rests are used in 3/4 time, and represent 2 beats. Same as using a quarter-note (crotchet) rest in 3/8 time.

As you say, a full-note = semibreve rest in 3/4 simply means the entire measure/bar is silent.


John
Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557406
04/12/07 05:33 AM
04/12/07 05:33 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,618
Geneva, Switzerland
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,618
Geneva, Switzerland
John,

I have to concur with Kreisler on this one: it is indeed convention not to use a minim (half-note) rest when in 3/4 time, as it might be confusing to the eye/brain. Have a look at bar 4 (and last 8 bars as well) of the following:

http://sheetmusicarchive.net/compositions_b/maz17_4.pdf

... which is the same in my Henle edition.

-Michael B.


There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.
Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557407
04/12/07 09:42 AM
04/12/07 09:42 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 921
P
phonehome Offline
500 Post Club Member
phonehome  Offline
500 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 921
I don't see a problem with writing a half rest in 3/4 time if the accent is on the first or second beat.

I compose a lot and my music is pretty straighforward but I don't shy away from using half rests in 3/4.

Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557408
04/13/07 01:51 AM
04/13/07 01:51 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 754
Belgium
J
JohnEB Offline
500 Post Club Member
JohnEB  Offline
500 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 754
Belgium
Well I can find examples of both usages (minim or 2 crotchet rests in 3/4) in the music I have to hand.

In 3/8 it does seem to be more usual to use 2 quaver restss than one crotchet, although again I can find examples of both.

And in 6/8 it's even worse with my edition of Mahler's Des Knaben Wunderhorn using both 2 quaver rests or 1 crotchet rest interchangeably within the same piece. Also I see both dotted crotchet or crotchet - quaver rest used interchangeably, but in 6/8 it always seems to be a dotted minim rest for a full bar rest.

Perhaps someone here who's done music engraving/editing can confirm if there is a current convention. The music notation software that I use allows both and doesn't seem to mind whichever I use.


John
Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557409
04/13/07 03:04 AM
04/13/07 03:04 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,618
Geneva, Switzerland
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,618
Geneva, Switzerland
John,

Over twenty years ago, before the days of notation software, when writing out scores or individual parts of arrangements/compositions for ensembles, choirs, etc, I'd never use a minim rest in triple time. I can't remember where I heard it, but it is/was simply a convention not to do so. Perhaps only some publishers follow it (such as Henle and others), but I believe they are in the majority. At least that's my impression from what I've seen over the years.

Talking of compound times signatures, Henle does not even use dotted rests to denote a full pulse pause, nor consolidate them (in the same spirit as using a minim rest in 3/4 time). This can lead to some odd situations, e.g. at the end of the 2nd movt of Beethoven's Op22 (a gorgeous piece in a very slow 9/8 time), after the final crotchet length chord, there is a quaver rest, followed by a crotchet rest, then a quaver rest, then a crotchet rest and then a quaver rest before the final double bar line.

in 6/8 it always seems to be a dotted minim rest for a full bar rest.

Hmm. I am fairly certain that the common convention for a full bar's tacet is a semibreve rest, regardless of the metre, simple or common. It certainly is in orchestral parts.

-Michael B.


There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.
Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557410
04/13/07 12:26 PM
04/13/07 12:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 754
Belgium
J
JohnEB Offline
500 Post Club Member
JohnEB  Offline
500 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 754
Belgium
I agree with you that use of a minim in 3/4 time is definitely far less common than use of 2 crotchets. And yes the use of a semibreve rest to signify a whole bar rest seems to be the norm although again I have plenty of music with dotted minim rests.

But now that I've started looking I see more and more dotted crotchets in 6/8 time, though quite often in choral music (of which I have a lot - that's also where a lot of minim rests in 3/4 are - could be a hint here?)


John
Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557411
04/14/07 04:49 AM
04/14/07 04:49 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,618
Geneva, Switzerland
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,618
Geneva, Switzerland
John,

Well, I think I can state with some certainty that of the fairly extensive Henle, Schott, Durand, B&H[1], ABRSM, Peters, etc., library of sheet music on the shelves around me, none ever uses a minim rest in 3/4 time, so that's as good as a convention for me. Perhaps other scores (choral[2] or otherwise) might differ in style and presentation, but I still believe Kreisler's statements to be true for what is accepted common practice, at least for instrumental music.

Cheers,

Michael B.
[1] Boosey and Hawkes rather than Benson and Hedges, obviously.
[2] I try to keep as little vocal sheet music in the house as possible, thereby greatly reducing the danger of anyone attempting to sing in the vicinity wink .


There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.
Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557412
04/18/07 12:40 PM
04/18/07 12:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 30
California
eastcountypiano Offline OP
Full Member
eastcountypiano  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 30
California
Thank you, all!


Jerrie, Piano Teacher
http://www.eastcountymusicstudio.com
Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557413
04/18/07 04:45 PM
04/18/07 04:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,701
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,701
Oakland
Quote
[1] Boosey and Hawkes rather than Benson and Hedges, obviously.
Or Breitkopf und Härtel.


Semipro Tech
Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557414
04/18/07 05:42 PM
04/18/07 05:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,618
Geneva, Switzerland
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,618
Geneva, Switzerland
BDB:
Or Breitkopf und Härtel.

Indeed, although being a Brit (and an ex-flautist), B&H will always mean Boosey and Hawkes to me at first glance.

-Michael B.


There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.
Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557415
04/18/07 06:42 PM
04/18/07 06:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
Kreisler Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Kreisler  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557416
04/19/07 06:18 AM
04/19/07 06:18 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 754
Belgium
J
JohnEB Offline
500 Post Club Member
JohnEB  Offline
500 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 754
Belgium
That's very interesting. I'd read somewhere that the rests should be used such that *if* a bar can be divided into two equal halves, then the rest should never span those two halves. Which is slightly different to the guidance given here.

Also I see the use of a quarter/crotchet rest in 6/8 or 9/8 time very frequently - it's all through my Breitkopf & Hartel edition of Des Knaben Wunderhorn. The idea of a dotted minim in 9/8 is pretty funny though - not quite sure why...


John
Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557417
04/19/07 10:24 AM
04/19/07 10:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,701
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,701
Oakland
I just saw Dave Brubeck perform his Blue Rondo a la Turk Sunday. As that starts 9/8 = 2/8 + 2/8 + 2/8 + 3/8, quarter rests would be just fine. There are usually exceptions to guidelines.


Semipro Tech
Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557418
04/19/07 12:32 PM
04/19/07 12:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 921
P
phonehome Offline
500 Post Club Member
phonehome  Offline
500 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 921
It's funny that a lot of great music students and professors can't even agree on something as simple as this!

Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557419
04/19/07 02:30 PM
04/19/07 02:30 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
Kreisler Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Kreisler  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
American music publishers DO agree on this, and so do most European publishers.

The people who disagree are in a very small minority. laugh


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557420
04/19/07 02:50 PM
04/19/07 02:50 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 921
P
phonehome Offline
500 Post Club Member
phonehome  Offline
500 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 921
Whateva, I'll do what I want laugh

Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557421
04/19/07 03:25 PM
04/19/07 03:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 754
Belgium
J
JohnEB Offline
500 Post Club Member
JohnEB  Offline
500 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 754
Belgium
Right, I have found the ultimate authority, in the form of the Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music book Rudiments of Music Theory.

The rule is that a separate rest should be used for each silent beat, with the following exceptions:

a) a semibreve/whole note rest is used for a whole bar's rest in any time except 4/2, when a breve rest is used.
b) in quadruple time (4/4) a half bar's rest at either the beginning or end of the bar is shown by a single rest
c) In compound time a one beat rest may be shown either by a dotted rest or by two rests.

So there you go - that explains why I find plenty of confusion on the 6/8 and 9/8 bars (my edition of Faure's songs uses the two conventions within 2 bars of each other!). Those publishers using a dotted minim in 6/8 are wrong.

And it means that those publishers of choral music that I found using a minim rest in 3/4 are definitely wrong (Breitkopf, Praga, Schott, write out 100 times 'I must not use minim rests in 3/4 time).


John
Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557422
04/19/07 04:26 PM
04/19/07 04:26 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,741
McAllen, TX
B
Brendan Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Brendan  Offline
5000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,741
McAllen, TX
Quote
Originally posted by phonehome:
Well you won't see a whole rest in 3/4 time.
confused

Yes you will.

Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557423
04/19/07 08:59 PM
04/19/07 08:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,651
Delaware (slower/lower)
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ralph  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,651
Delaware (slower/lower)
This thread is a perfect example of thinking you understand something only to find out how little you actually know.

A whole rest (semibreve) is equal to the total number of beats in a measure regardless of meter. Isn't a half rest (minim) equal to half the total beats in a measure? Therefore, wouldn't it be equal to 2 beats in 4/4, 1 1/2 beats in 3/4, 3 beats in 6/8 and so on?


Search "Rest (music)" Wikipedia. It won't let me link it.


Do or do not. There is no try.
Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557424
04/19/07 09:05 PM
04/19/07 09:05 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 14
United States
T
the ripped pianist Offline
Junior Member
the ripped pianist  Offline
Junior Member
T

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 14
United States
i've always seen two quarter rests, but anyway, it counts for 2 of the 3 beats.


Signatures are so overrated...
Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557425
04/19/07 09:43 PM
04/19/07 09:43 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
Kreisler Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Kreisler  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
Quote
Originally posted by Ralph:
Isn't a half rest (minim) equal to half the total beats in a measure? Therefore, wouldn't it be equal to 2 beats in 4/4, 1 1/2 beats in 3/4, 3 beats in 6/8 and so on?
It might be if it were actually used in those meters, but since it's not, the question is moot.

laugh


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
Re: 1/2 rest in 3/4 time #557426
01/27/08 04:41 PM
01/27/08 04:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,204
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,204
Canada
I just saw this question - hope it's ok to resuscitate. The half rest is used in 3/4 time if it covers the first two beats. If the last two beats are covered, then two quarter rests are used. The reason is that the conventions of rests also mimic the essence of rhythms of music, and you would not want to emphasize the second beat in 3/4 meter. Generally that's the rule of thumb behind all the conventions about rests.
A whole rest is used in any meter if there are no notes at all in the measure, and simply connotes that this measure is "empty". However, in time signatures with half note gettting the beat, this can't be used, and that is when the double thingy for which I've forgotten the name of isu used = 8 beats.
Compound meter is treated differently since it involves triplets, or triple pulse. Again the idea is not to break up the natural rhythm. Thus your rests will often be dotted rests. The whole note rest for a measure with no notes applies to compound meter.

Complex or hybrid meter will use these same conventions, and the choice of rests depends on how the beats are divided up. This also makes matters more complicated when you have i.e. 9/8 time and you are trying to figure out rests, and first have to know whether this is compound time, or hybrid such as 2+2+2+3 (4+5).

I just finished writing the RCM exams so this is fresh in my memory. Rests in particular were a bane to my existence that I tended to get tripped up on. The source is Barbara Wharram, and I don't know whether it's internationally valid.


Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

(ad)
Sweetwater - Keyboards
Sweetwater
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Sticking sustain on Yamaha and UK 5 year warranty
by pianist007. 11/17/18 04:12 AM
Chopin's 4th Scherzo
by SiFi. 11/17/18 03:18 AM
SEO
by hongthai. 11/17/18 12:30 AM
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Petrof
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics188,375
Posts2,761,884
Members91,504
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Please Support Our Advertisers
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

PianoTeq Petrof
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2