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Re: Joyce Hatto hoax #556685
02/16/07 10:40 PM
02/16/07 10:40 PM
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Chicago, IL USA
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Quote
Originally posted by pianojerome:
Quote
Originally posted by kluurs:
[b] Well, I'm out a bunch.
No you're not, if they're as good as they're made out to be. So maybe it wasn't really her playing, but in the end you still have CDs. [/b]
Yes, he is. I've seen Ken's CD collection. He's already got everything else, which would mean the original recordings from which the Hatto discs may have been pirated (time and more checking by eagle-eared* and technologically savvy persons will tell).

*If eagles have good eyes, I suppose the metaphor will not be misunderstood, whether or not the birds hear well, also.


There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians
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Re: Joyce Hatto hoax #556686
02/17/07 11:24 AM
02/17/07 11:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
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California
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I'm speechless... is this woman real? From reading the story I would've thought it was a much, much more well-elaborated variation of one of those "cancer patients" who coincidentally die off the minute that skepticism arises. But if she was in fact a real person I of course intend no disrespect toward her, at least not in this way.

Re: Joyce Hatto hoax #556687
02/17/07 11:56 AM
02/17/07 11:56 AM
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Connecticut
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From:

The New York Times

More interesting reading:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/topics

More evidence from an independent source:

http://www.charm.rhul.ac.uk/content/contact/hatto_article.html


There are currently 104 Joyce Hatto CDs in print and 50 more awaiting production!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WT cursing !

Mel


"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get — only what you are expecting to give — which is everything. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn
Re: Joyce Hatto hoax #556688
02/17/07 12:39 PM
02/17/07 12:39 PM
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Williamsburg, VA
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The statistical evidence seems overwhelming.

Re: Joyce Hatto hoax #556689
02/17/07 01:15 PM
02/17/07 01:15 PM
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Pacific Northwest, US.
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Quote
Originally posted by dannylux:
There are currently 104 Joyce Hatto CDs in print and 50 more awaiting production!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
50? This is truly getting more bizarre all the time. smokin smokin smokin


Jason
Re: Joyce Hatto hoax #556690
02/17/07 02:21 PM
02/17/07 02:21 PM
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US
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I just read the article in the NY Times this morning. wow. The evidence is pretty convincing so far. The question is going to be-- are any of these recordings legitimate? Did anyone here ever hear her play in person?


Sophia

Re: Joyce Hatto hoax #556691
02/19/07 01:48 AM
02/19/07 01:48 AM
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Connecticut
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Quote
Originally posted by sophial:
Did anyone here ever hear her play in person?
Sophia
Not since her last concert in London in 1976. Some websites report 1979 as the year of her last concert.

The severe pain she experienced from cancer would overtake her anytime during a performance, so she gave up performing in public.

She fought that horrible disease for 36 years.

This is getting stranger and stranger.

She was apparently a phenomenally gifted pianist.

From a review of her Wigmore Hall debut in 1954:

The Guardian's Neville Cardus wrote of her Brahms Paganini Variations that they were "despatched in a seamless riot of ecstatic bravura laced with underlying deep musical feeling rarely countenanced in this work".

She was the first person in modern times to play all of the Beethoven-Liszt Symphonies in concert.

At another concert, she played the 12 Transendental Etudes, preceeded by Liszt's first version of the TEs.

She was told by the London Conservatory (correction: this should be the Royal Acadamy of Music) that, being a woman, she would do better to learn to cook a good roast than to study piano.

She studied with Marian Holbrooke, Serge Krish ( Busoni's pupil), Benno Moiseiwitsch, Nicolai Medtner, Alfred Cortot, Matyas Seiber, Clara Haskil, Nadia Boulanger, and others.

I've got to hear some authentic Hatto.

I have "her" Chopin-Godowsky Studies and the ChopEts.

The ChopGods are reported to be Carlo Grante's recording speeded up.

"Her" ChopGods were rated 10/10. The review is here:

http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=10551

My God, that woman was amazing!

She managed to make Carlo Grante sound like a great pianist.

Mel


"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get — only what you are expecting to give — which is everything. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn
Re: Joyce Hatto hoax #556692
02/19/07 02:20 AM
02/19/07 02:20 AM
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Pacific Northwest, US.
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Quote
Originally posted by dannylux:
She was the first person in modern times to play all of the Beethoven-Liszt Symphonies in concert.

At another concert, she played the 12 Transendental Etudes, preceeded by Liszt's first version of the TEs.
Any reviews of these concerts? I remain unconvinced.

I have the scores to both the Beethoven-Liszt and the earlier version of Liszt's TE. Throw in the Godowsky nonsense -I have those scores too- and I smell a rat. Pure and simple. The pianist that no one has ever heard of that just happens to negotiate this impossibly difficult repertoire with the ease that would make Hamelin blush? Bullshit.


Jason
Re: Joyce Hatto hoax #556693
02/19/07 05:31 AM
02/19/07 05:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,755
England/Switzerland
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This link posted by Dannylux was very revealing. Fascinating analysis method for comparing recordings.

More evidence from an independent source:

http://www.charm.rhul.ac.uk/content/contact/hatto_article.html

I agree with pianodad, it seems to me to be conclusive that at least some of the Hatto recordings have been misrepresented.


Currently playing 2017 C212 with carbon fibre soundboard, WNG action. Working on Bach, Beethoven, Grieg mainly.
Re: Joyce Hatto hoax #556694
02/19/07 06:45 AM
02/19/07 06:45 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 872
Scotland
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"She was told by the London Conservatory that, being a woman, she would do better to learn to cook a good roast than to study piano."

Except there's no such thing as the London Conservatory and to my knowledge there never has been.


John


Vasa inania multum strepunt.
Re: Joyce Hatto hoax #556695
02/19/07 07:13 AM
02/19/07 07:13 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,865
Connecticut
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It was the Royal Academy of Music.

My mistake.

Roast

Mel


"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get — only what you are expecting to give — which is everything. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn
Re: Joyce Hatto hoax #556696
02/19/07 08:15 AM
02/19/07 08:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 872
Scotland
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Odd, really. Plenty of women came through the London music colleges and there were well-known woman musicians. I could imagine, though, the patronising "being a woman, she would do better to learn to cook a good roast" response to an inadequate audition or subsequent assessment at that time.


John


Vasa inania multum strepunt.
Re: Joyce Hatto hoax #556697
02/19/07 09:01 AM
02/19/07 09:01 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 494
united kingdom
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united kingdom
There will be a lot of egg on a lot of faces among the critics who have praised here so highly. It will be interesting to see how many of the recordings turn out to be fakes once they are all examined.

The mind boggles when it comes to trying to guess at the motivation for perpetrating such a hoax. Perhaps it was done to show up the gullibility of a lot of the critics... I wonder how Laszlo's Liszt went down at the time it was released.

I wonder to whom the mantle of 'greatest pianist no one has ever heard of' might now pass to? Perhaps that kind of thinking was just too goood to be true!

Re: Joyce Hatto hoax #556698
02/19/07 09:04 AM
02/19/07 09:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,365
Philadelphia
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Very interesting whodunit and I tend to believe it.

What I don't undertstand is that with this mountain of potential evidence there must be lots of people involved--so why is there not more in the news on the modus operandi?

Whats the motive and how was it done? We need it for a good story.

Re: Joyce Hatto hoax #556699
02/19/07 09:34 AM
02/19/07 09:34 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,865
Connecticut
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By David Hurwitz in www.classicstoday.com "Will The Real Joyce Hatto Please Stand Up":

Part 1

Part 2


I think this is going to get even stranger.

Mel


"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get — only what you are expecting to give — which is everything. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn
Re: Joyce Hatto hoax #556700
02/19/07 10:41 AM
02/19/07 10:41 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,996
Williamsburg, VA
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The link that Mel and Adrian provided is a statistical analysis. The acoustical signature analaysis is of a different sort entirely. The combination seems quite convincing. I suspect over the next month or two every recording ascribed to her will be thoroughly analyzed.

Reporters smell a good story, after all, and this one has all the elements of high drama. How can you beat it; the tragedy in her life, the feminist/discrimination angle, the technical wizardry involved and subsequent use of technology to expose things, the self-important critics wearing egg. Oh, it's all so potentially delicious to a writer. I smell a book soon, and potentially a movie. It could easily be on par with "A Beautiful Mind." If you can make a mathematician-economist seem interesting........

Cheers,

D

P.S. I wonder when Ivan Davis will say something. I studied with one of his colleagues (Rosalina Sackstein) at Miami back in the 70s, and I heard him play on occasion.

Re: Joyce Hatto hoax #556701
02/19/07 11:14 AM
02/19/07 11:14 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,865
Connecticut
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Quote
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
I wonder when Ivan Davis will say something.
Posted by cmg last night on pianostreet:

"Well, for what this is worth to those already convinced of fraud in the Hatto affair, I spoke last night with Ivan Davis, expecting that he might be horrified and mortified at the lastest developments. He just laughed. His faith in the veracity of the Hatto recordings remains unshaken."

More from cmg here:

pianostreet


Mel


"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get — only what you are expecting to give — which is everything. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn
Re: Joyce Hatto hoax #556702
02/19/07 11:38 AM
02/19/07 11:38 AM
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Posts: 3,546
US
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Quote
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
The link that Mel and Adrian provided is a statistical analysis. The acoustical signature analaysis is of a different sort entirely. The combination seems quite convincing. I suspect over the next month or two every recording ascribed to her will be thoroughly analyzed.

Reporters smell a good story, after all, and this one has all the elements of high drama. How can you beat it; the tragedy in her life, the feminist/discrimination angle, the technical wizardry involved and subsequent use of technology to expose things, the self-important critics wearing egg. Oh, it's all so potentially delicious to a writer. I smell a book soon, and potentially a movie. It could easily be on par with "A Beautiful Mind." If you can make a mathematician-economist seem interesting........

Cheers,

D

P.S. I wonder when Ivan Davis will say something. I studied with one of his colleagues (Rosalina Sackstein) at Miami back in the 70s, and I heard him play on occasion.
After reading the Hurwitz articles this morning, the evidence seems overwhelming. The questions of course will be who did it and why. The back story to this should be fascinating. David, this might be more like "Shine" in reverse... "Tarnished" perhaps?

Sophia

Re: Joyce Hatto hoax #556703
02/19/07 12:09 PM
02/19/07 12:09 PM
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Williamsburg, VA
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Quote
He just laughed. His faith in the veracity of the Hatto recordings remains unshaken.
It's certainly worth keeping an open mind, but for those of us who are not invested in this issue at all, "faith" isn't a word to apply. Ultimately, Davis and everyone else who believes deeply that these recordings are authentic, has to contend with the acoustical and statistical evidence.

If, for instance, one could show that two performances played by different people (and this fact is verified independently) could have an exactly matching acoustical signature, then that would be some counter-evidence. On the other hand, even if such a match is possible, it may be such a rarity that multiple cases of match (and with different pianists) would have to be regarded as solid evidence of fraud.

For now, we should all keep an open mind. There will be a continuing process of analysis, I'm sure, and more and more evidence will accumulate. Eventually, the weight of that evidence will allow reasonable people to draw some conclusions.

Re: Joyce Hatto hoax #556704
02/19/07 01:01 PM
02/19/07 01:01 PM
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West Virginia
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Don't be too quick to assume that the Hatto recordings are worthless - they could become prized by collectors as keepsakes of one of the greatest musical scandals of our time.

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