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#553109 - 02/01/09 10:17 PM Battle of the Toccatas!  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6
topspinwu Offline
Junior Member
topspinwu  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6
The contenders:
Liszt Toccata
Prokofiev Toccata
Khachaturian Toccata
Ravel Toccata
Schumann Toccata
Bach Toccata laugh

Which do you think are the hardest/most fun to hear?

I personally like the Prokofiev ^_^

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#553110 - 02/01/09 10:21 PM Re: Battle of the Toccatas!  
Joined: Sep 2008
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Horowitzian Offline
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Horowitzian  Offline
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Prokofiev and Schumann for me; though I likely have little hope of playing any of them well. frown


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
#553111 - 02/01/09 11:21 PM Re: Battle of the Toccatas!  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 920
MarkH Offline
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MarkH  Offline
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Seattle, WA
The multiple Bach Toccatas and the Prokofiev are by far the best works on your list IMO.

Perhaps you'd like to add the Debussy Toccata from Pour Le Piano, and the Godowsky Toccata (certainly a lesser work, but it fits if the Liszt goes on the list)?

Does anybody else strongly dislike the Schumann Toccata? I really want to like it, as I like most high-strung virtuoso works, but I find it harmonically uninteresting, and I find all the fluttering over the same chords to be really tiresome.

#553112 - 02/01/09 11:50 PM Re: Battle of the Toccatas!  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,353
argerichfan Offline
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argerichfan  Offline
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Pacific Northwest, US.
Quote
Originally posted by MarkH:
Does anybody else strongly dislike the Schumann Toccata?
I rather like it. If you've seen the score to Czerny's toccata, it's quite obvious that Schumann knew it. Both Horowitz and Richter have given us landmark recordings of the Schumann, and reportedly Martha Argerich 'warms up' with it.

One of my favourites is certainly Busoni's outstanding transcription of Bach's Toccata, Adagio & Fugue, another Horowitz specialty.

As for non-organ Bach, the C minor Toccata is IMO, one of the best he wrote. But I like the D major also, and then there's the G major, a precursor to Bach's overwhelming P&F in G (BWV 541) for organ.


Jason
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#553113 - 02/02/09 12:19 AM Re: Battle of the Toccatas!  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,155
DameMyra Offline
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DameMyra  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,155
South Jersey
Of course, there are many other toccatas you could also include: the Debussy (already mentioned), Saint-Saens, Sancan, Ben-Haim, Cuellar, Menotti, Tcherpnin, Muczynski, Poulenc and I'm sure there are others I've forgotten. (The Bach toccatas are really not the same animal as the others.) I happen to love the Schumann, especially that gorgeous lyrical second subject and that wonderful simple ending.


Private Piano Teacher
MTNA/NJMTA/SJMTA
#553114 - 02/02/09 12:21 AM Re: Battle of the Toccatas!  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
sotto voce Offline
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sotto voce  Offline
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Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
I like Chopin's 10/7.

Steven

#553115 - 02/02/09 12:27 AM Re: Battle of the Toccatas!  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 589
akonow Offline
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akonow  Offline
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Los Angeles
I quite like Ravel's Toccata from La Tombeau de Couperin but Schumann's Toccata takes the cake for me. I find it so dynamic and dreamy even though it's a toccata.


Bach - WTC I in C major & C minor (BWV 846-847)
Mozart - Sonata K 282
Chopin - Polonaises Op 26
Schumann - Fantasiest├╝cke Op 12
#553116 - 02/02/09 12:31 AM Re: Battle of the Toccatas!  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,501
Fleeting Visions Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Fleeting Visions  Offline
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,501
Champaign, IL
Quote
Originally posted by argerichfan:
Quote
Originally posted by MarkH:
Does anybody else strongly dislike the Schumann Toccata?
I rather like it. If you've seen the score to Czerny's toccata, it's quite obvious that Schumann knew it. Both Horowitz and Richter have given us landmark recordings of the Schumann, and reportedly Martha Argerich 'warms up' with it.

One of my favourites is certainly Busoni's outstanding transcription of Bach's Toccata, Adagio & Fugue, another Horowitz specialty.

As for non-organ Bach, the C minor Toccata is IMO, one of the best he wrote. But I like the D major also, and then there's the G major, a precursor to Bach's overwhelming P&F in G (BWV 541) for organ.
Schumann's sequencing and counterpoint are enough to make me love the piece.

I personally like the Bach keyboard toccatas. Those are perfectly balanced works, complete in counterpoint, form, and three movements.


Amateur Pianist, Scriabin Enthusiast, and Octave Demon
#553117 - 02/02/09 12:41 AM Re: Battle of the Toccatas!  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Kreisler Offline
Kreisler  Offline


Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
Bach c minor

Schumann


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#553118 - 02/02/09 12:47 AM Re: Battle of the Toccatas!  
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,035
Loki Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Loki  Offline
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Posts: 1,035
Texas
Bach e minor

Prokofiev


Houston, Texas
#553119 - 02/02/09 03:15 AM Re: Battle of the Toccatas!  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,052
AZNpiano Offline
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AZNpiano  Offline
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Orange County, CA
I adore the Toccata from Bach's Partita No. 6!!

I also like the Bowen Toccata.

Not a big fan of the Schumann...


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
#553120 - 02/02/09 05:14 AM Re: Battle of the Toccatas!  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 959
pianovirus Offline
500 Post Club Member
pianovirus  Offline
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Basel, Switzerland
I think the term 'toccata' made quite some development over the centuries. As a consequence, I find relatively little in common to compare between the Bach toccatas (single- and multi-movement) and the post-Baroque toccatas mentioned here. Baroque toccatas might even be closer to what has later been called "fantasy" - mainly a written improvisation (possibly with, but not limited to, virtuosic elements). In contrast, in later times, toccatas generally became much closer to etudes, often via a "perpetual motion" element (see also Steven's allusion to 10/7). Exceptions which connect more directly to the Baroque tradition include Reger's organ toccatas.

#553121 - 02/02/09 06:12 AM Re: Battle of the Toccatas!  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,865
wr Offline
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wr  Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by pianovirus:
I think the term 'toccata' made quite some development over the centuries. As a consequence, I find relatively little in common to compare between the Bach toccatas (single- and multi-movement) and the post-Baroque toccatas mentioned here. Baroque toccatas might even be closer to what has later been called "fantasy" - mainly a written improvisation (possibly with, but not limited to, virtuosic elements). In contrast, in later times, toccatas generally became much closer to etudes, often via a "perpetual motion" element (see also Steven's allusion to 10/7). Exceptions which connect more directly to the Baroque tradition include Reger's organ toccatas.
Another modern toccata that is more connected to the Baroque multipart idea, rather than to the Czerny/Schumann perpetual motion concept, is the Busoni toccata. It's one of Busoni's best works, I think, fairly compact, and quite powerful in effect. I'm surprised it's not played more often. It's difficult, but not ridiculous.

#553122 - 02/02/09 08:51 AM Re: Battle of the Toccatas!  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Kreisler Offline
Kreisler  Offline


Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
I also like the Muczynski Toccata, and the toccata from Ravel's Tombeau de Couperin.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
#553123 - 02/02/09 01:32 PM Re: Battle of the Toccatas!  
Joined: Sep 2008
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Horowitzian Offline
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Horowitzian  Offline
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I'll add the Bach C minor. Simply perfect. cool


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
#553124 - 02/02/09 02:26 PM Re: Battle of the Toccatas!  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 342
Liszt_BG Offline
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Liszt_BG  Offline
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Posts: 342
Bulgaria
Bach E minor

Schumann

#553125 - 02/02/09 04:49 PM Re: Battle of the Toccatas!  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 888
GreenRain Offline
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GreenRain  Offline
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Somewhere in Europe
Quote
Originally posted by sotto voce:
I like Chopin's 10/7.

Steven
:rolleyes:

#553126 - 02/02/09 07:19 PM Re: Battle of the Toccatas!  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 188
Anders39 Offline
Full Member
Anders39  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 188
Norway
Prokofiev.


"Silence is music too"
#553127 - 02/02/09 07:35 PM Re: Battle of the Toccatas!  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member
sotto voce  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2006
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Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Quote
Originally posted by GreenRain:
Quote
Originally posted by sotto voce:
[b] I like Chopin's 10/7.

Steven
:rolleyes: [/b]
Well yeah, but the programmatic titles for so many of the others seem silly and superfluous. This nickname is one of the most well deserved IMHO but least known, so I had to throw it out there.

Steven

#553128 - 02/02/09 08:09 PM Re: Battle of the Toccatas!  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 97
Quite a Delight Offline
Full Member
Quite a Delight  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 97
Alkan op.76no3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg-4GcfcC4k

Love this one too.


Simply rather marvellous.

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

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