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#545851 - 07/17/05 03:11 PM liebestraum no.3 cadenzas  
Joined: Jun 2005
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bach enthusiast Offline
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bach enthusiast  Offline
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Tucson Arizona
I've learned this piece's main sections in stride, but i'm having some trouble with the cadenzas. It isn't the technics, but more of a ryhthm problem. I can't seem to get em to flow. Unfortunately I don't have a recording of this piece so I don't have any examples to go on. Does anybody have some tips or suggestions on how I can get these cadenzas sounding right? It would be much appreciated, cause they're the only thing I must complete in order to learn this piece completely. Thanx smile


JOHN
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#545852 - 07/17/05 03:18 PM Re: liebestraum no.3 cadenzas  
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barganax Offline
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barganax  Offline
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I'm working on this too. Would be interested in hearing if anyone can recommend sheet music editions with fingering for the cadenzas that they find useful.

#545853 - 07/17/05 05:13 PM Re: liebestraum no.3 cadenzas  
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any advice on practicing these?


JOHN
#545854 - 07/17/05 06:21 PM Re: liebestraum no.3 cadenzas  
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jpw101 Offline
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The Sauer edition has good fingerings on the whole, although I take the r.h. broken chromatic thirds in the second cadenza without using the 5th finger (41-31-42-31 etc.). The use of both hands in the second cadenza's run makes it considerably easier and more fluent in execution than other versions that use only the right hand:

[Linked Image]

The first cadenza is fairly easy to learn once you break it down into the repeating elements and get used to shifting your hand position from one 'group' to the next. Sauer's edition says 'senza pedale' here, but I have my doubts about that - to me it sounds like a puff of smoke billowing up and settling down - playing it without pedal makes it dry and VERY awkward to play legato. The 'senza pedale' direction is very effective in the second cadenza though.

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#545855 - 07/17/05 06:32 PM Re: liebestraum no.3 cadenzas  
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Mandel Offline
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Sweden
Hey Bach-Enthusiast & barganax.
There are several tips and hint in order to get those cadenzas smooth!

1. Dot not play the whole cadenza over and over again.. you must dived it in parts. It might just be 5-10 notes, do them slowly and cristal clear, over and over. Be careful with hitting both hand's notes at the same time.

2. Rythmizise the Cadenzas.. come up with several different rythmings. ex dotted notes, triplets, swing, sixteenth's-groups etc etc!

3. Play the cadenzas loudly and with strong dynamics. Feel that you are done with each note before you move to the next one. This will get your fingers strong and secure. But always be relaxed. Use both fingermechanics and armweight.
Some will say that this way of practising is wrong, but witnesses who heard Horowitz practised said, he'd never practise softly.
So why not try, or practise both softly and loud.

4. Practise seperate hands. It's possible you'll notice the left hand needs more practise.

5. Finally, and most important.
Be Patient, set some practise time each day just for these cadenzas. Don't give up, just do it over and over, slowly and more slowly.
And when it's time for concert, do these passages in your own tempo.. they don't have to be in some crazy Cziffra-speed to sound nice and musical.
Here is a link with some fingerings:

http://www.sheetmusicarchive.net/compositions_b/lz_loved.pdf

good luck

//David


- We were born as originals, but we die as copies -
#545856 - 07/17/05 11:36 PM Re: liebestraum no.3 cadenzas  
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Yeah, but they do need to be pretty brisk eh, plus I think it's much more fun to play them fast. I've been working on the first one since this afternoon and it's coming along quite well. I'm sure I'll have these blazing up and down the board in a week or two. Also, I don't use to much pedal here, but i'd say it would be necessary for more if taken at a slower tempo.The fingering is self explainitory, but thanks anyway for your responses guys.


JOHN
#545857 - 07/18/05 12:31 AM Re: liebestraum no.3 cadenzas  
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BBBworship Offline
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heh for the 2nd cadenza, there just isnt any other way...

24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24


haha im serious thats how i played it

#545858 - 07/18/05 04:59 AM Re: liebestraum no.3 cadenzas  
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jpw101 Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by bach enthusiast:
Yeah, but they do need to be pretty brisk eh
I think the first one is meant to be taken at the same tempo as the rest of the first section. That's how I play it anyway, it follows the 6/4 metre and seems logical to play it that way.

#545859 - 07/18/05 09:30 AM Re: liebestraum no.3 cadenzas  
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Yeah, you're right jpw101, I did'nt mean to apply a set in stone way these cadenzas should be played. I myself don't like to many rules.After all it's art right? this is one of those pieces that varies more than most between every pianists rendition. There really does'nt seem to be a high priority placed by Liszt on tempo in this composition(especially on the cadenzas, There's no tempo directions for em at all in my edition.).The way it kinda flows and pulsates reveals the proper tempo on its own, It sorta works itself out. Regarding the first cadenza, I've been gradually accelerating into the top and slackening at the end (hard to explain). I'll have to experiment with it. Come to think of it, I have'nt even tried taking that cadenza(1) at an intentionaly slower tempo on the whole. I'll try it when I get back from class.


JOHN
#545860 - 07/18/05 09:56 AM Re: liebestraum no.3 cadenzas  
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***musical princess*** Offline
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Newcastle, England
Hey bach enthusiast,

You said in a previous post that you didn't have a recording of the piece. Well, i tried to post the link but it didn't work so if you go to www.aolsearch.com click on the 'audio' search then type in 'liebestraum' you will get lots of results - most of which are only the first 30 seconds. The 12 result however (or the last one on the first page) is the whole song. You can right click and save it to your favourites and then you will be able to listen to it over and over again!

x


x Caroline x
#545861 - 07/18/05 09:59 AM Re: liebestraum no.3 cadenzas  
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***musical princess*** Offline
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Sorry, it isn't the bottom one! Its the one that's 4 minutes 38 seconds.

x


x Caroline x
#545862 - 08/11/05 02:46 AM Re: liebestraum no.3 cadenzas  
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barganax Offline
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I am late getting back to this thread.

Regarding the first cadenza, which I find the more difficult, Mandel's version is very similar to my version in the right hand, but the left hand is quite different: mine goes
12 14 23 15 23 14 23 14 21 21 23 45 12 31 23 12 34
instead of 23 23 23...
I find that my version feels clumsier in the left hand (my fingers get bunched together), but when I play it correctly I am actually able to play it with more legato. Maybe this makes it possible to play the cadenza with less pedal?

As for the 2nd cadenza, again, the left hand is very similar but the right hand is different. And, compared with the version provided by jpw101, the right hand is similar to my version and the left hand is different!

On the general topic of this piece, I find it very educational. In particular, I find that, more than other pieces I have worked on, it is possible to play the notes correctly and still play the piece poorly. It requires a lot of attention to bringing out the melody, which is sometimes played in the left and sometimes in the right hand. And the phrasing requires careful attention. In the mp3 file that Caroline pointed out (and in the CDs I have listened to), the rhythm in each measure is like:
ONE two three ONE two three ONE two three ONE two three
but it can also be played
ONE two three four five six ONE two three four five six
and it sounds quite different. Has anyone else noticed this?

#545863 - 08/11/05 05:16 AM Re: liebestraum no.3 cadenzas  
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jpw101 Offline
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I've not heard the mp3 in question, but it should be played | 1-2 3-4 5-6 / 2-2 3-4 5-6 | as it's in 6/4 time. Dividing each group of 8ths into two groups of three is incorrect, and would be equivalent to two bars of 6/8 rather than one of 6/4.

#545864 - 08/11/05 11:36 AM Re: liebestraum no.3 cadenzas  
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barganax Offline
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jpw101,
I did not express myself cleary.
What I meant to describe was how the *accompanyment* is played (which is carried by the right hand at the start). But I think your statement still applies.

BTW I just listened to my Jorge Bolet CD and he also plays the right hand ONE two three ONE two three...

#545865 - 08/11/05 05:08 PM Re: liebestraum no.3 cadenzas  
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jpw101 Offline
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Oh, I assumed you meant the r.h. accompaniment in the first place. If Bolet plays it in 6/8, he's doing it wrong - or taking some artistic license laugh

#545866 - 08/11/05 05:23 PM Re: liebestraum no.3 cadenzas  
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virtuoso_735 Offline
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www.classicalmidiconnection and www.classicalarchives.com (you'll need to register though) has some free MIDI's of liebestraume no.3


"If music be the food of love, play on." -William Shakespeare
#545867 - 08/12/05 12:38 AM Re: liebestraum no.3 cadenzas  
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barganax Offline
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Thanks virtuoso_735.
I just went to http://www.classicalmidiconnection.com and clicked on Liszt on the left hand side and found 3 versions of Liebestraum #3. The first (sequencer unknown) and third (Katsuhir Oguri) are played ONE two three ONE two three...

But the middle version (Robert Finley) is played ONE two three four five six...


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