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Thumbs over/under #543990
04/23/05 04:16 AM
04/23/05 04:16 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 38
F
Forza2 Offline OP
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Forza2  Offline OP
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F

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 38
In Chang's book, he describes a technique called thumbs over, which makes it easier to do faster, more accurate, scales, in comparison to the method thumbs under, in which you put the thumb under the hand to play the scale legato, which is the usual way of taking the scale.

I didn't get how to do this Thumbs over thing though, can anyone help me out?
And which method do you people like the best?

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Re: Thumbs over/under #543991
04/23/05 05:10 AM
04/23/05 05:10 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 917
Virginia
cathys Offline
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Virginia

Re: Thumbs over/under #543992
04/23/05 07:46 AM
04/23/05 07:46 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,868
pianojerome Offline
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pianojerome  Offline
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That's a good thread.

The main trouble with this term is that you're not actually moving the thumb over the hand.

The term 'thumb under' makes sense, because you're actually moving the thumb under the hand.

But for thumb over, you're just shifting the hand over. You're shifting the entire hand, not just the thumb, so that the thumb ends up, via shifting, on the correct key.


Sam
Re: Thumbs over/under #543993
04/23/05 09:09 AM
04/23/05 09:09 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 827
Denver, Colorado
C.V. Alkan Offline
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C.V. Alkan  Offline
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Denver, Colorado
Hmm... this thumb over technique, if I understand correctly, seems to go against everything I've ever learned. I was taught to reduce movement as much as possible, esspecially in fast passages. The giant movements you're hand makes in this "thumb over" techinique seems like it would lead to horrible uneveness and an excess use of energy. The French school of music tells you to do the exact opposite. I remember seeing a video of Marc-Andre Hamelin playing Liszt, and I was flabergasted at how little his hands moved... I diddn't see him using this method.

Perhaps I misunderstood the method...


- Zack -
Re: Thumbs over/under #543994
04/23/05 09:37 AM
04/23/05 09:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,868
pianojerome Offline
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pianojerome  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2005
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As I understand it, the thumb over technique actually would reduced excess use of energy. You don't have to move your thumb over or under the hand, you just move the hand as a whole.

Compare it to thumb under:

For thumb under, move the thumb under the hand to the next key, and then move the whole hand over.

For thumb over, move the whole hand over (keeping the thumb relatively level with the other fingers).

So for thumb over, you're actually using less energy that if you use thumb under.

But I still prefer thumb under.


Sam
Re: Thumbs over/under #543995
04/23/05 12:10 PM
04/23/05 12:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,483
Ohio, USA
signa Offline
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Ohio, USA
for extremely fast passages, you have no choice but use TO method, because passing thumb under will block your speed. besides, for fast playing legato become unnecessary, therefore there's no need to do thumb under.

Re: Thumbs over/under #543996
04/23/05 12:24 PM
04/23/05 12:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 429
Dallas, Texas
princessclara2005 Offline
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princessclara2005  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 429
Dallas, Texas
Quote
Originally posted by Forza2:
In Chang's book, he describes a technique called thumbs over, which makes it easier to do faster, more accurate, scales, in comparison to the method thumbs under, in which you put the thumb under the hand to play the scale legato, which is the usual way of taking the scale.

I didn't get how to do this Thumbs over thing though, can anyone help me out?
And which method do you people like the best?
thumb over? never heard of it, and it is not doable.

who has suggested to play scale with thumb over?

Re: Thumbs over/under #543997
04/23/05 02:13 PM
04/23/05 02:13 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,270
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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BruceD  Offline
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Posts: 22,270
Victoria, BC
princessclara:

Obviously you didn't read the explanation of the term "thumb over"


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Thumbs over/under #543998
04/30/05 07:18 AM
04/30/05 07:18 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,846
RHUL
M
Max W Offline
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Max W  Offline
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M

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,846
RHUL
Quote
Originally posted by signa:
for extremely fast passages, you have no choice but use TO method, because passing thumb under will block your speed. besides, for fast playing legato become unnecessary, therefore there's no need to do thumb under.
Exactly, TO is like gravity, it's always been there, but it was only recently given a name. >_>

Re: Thumbs over/under #543999
04/30/05 09:55 AM
04/30/05 09:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,868
pianojerome Offline
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pianojerome  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,868
Quote
Originally posted by Max W:
TO is like gravity, it's always been there, but it was only recently given a name. >_>
... a very misguiding name.


Sam
Re: Thumbs over/under #544000
05/01/05 09:22 AM
05/01/05 09:22 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,047
Minneapolis, Minnesota
tomasino Offline
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tomasino  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,047
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Hi,

My teacher always just said stuff like "shift your hand position over a bit and start again on the thumb." It's a lot of words, I know, but it's a better use of language than "thumb over" which doesn't mean "thumb over."

Seems like you'd have to do a full body flip right off the bench in order not to twist your arm off. I'd end up with my feet crashing down on the high end keys.That would be disturbing in a legato passage.

"Thumb over!" Cripes sake, just speak the language clearly.

Tom


"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10

Re: Thumbs over/under #544001
05/01/05 06:05 PM
05/01/05 06:05 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 198
Beltsville, MD
Sketchee Offline
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Sketchee  Offline
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 198
Beltsville, MD
It just means "Move your thumb over".

It's very simple and reduces movement for those fast passages. Played evenly and quickly, you'll get a much cleaner and potentially fast passage.

If you're expecting simple names to hold the keystone to any technique, the piano will quickly seem "not doable", however.


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