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A fantastic piece of music. I have been struggling very hard to learn it. I improve but the middlesection in E major causes me trouble. The octave in the left hand is impossible. After a few bars it goes "clumsy dumsy". It seems as if I have to drop the doubling bass.

Yes, it's a fantastic piece of music, but you may be attempting to work on something that is too difficult for you.

First of all, the middle section is not in E sharp, it's in E.

The only way to maintain the LH octaves is to keep the wrist relaxed. If you don't have the stamina to maintain them, then the piece is too difficult for you. I don't think you can "simplify" the piece by dropping the octave in the bass and playing only single notes; that would destroy the whole character of that section.

I suggest you learn something else more in keeping with your current abilities and save the Op 53 for when you are technically ready for it.

Regards,

I've only looked at this, never tried to
work it up, but this doesn't seem to
be insurmountably difficult for
someone who's pretty proficient at the
keys and who can reach an octave easily,
it's maybe more the reputation of the
piece than anything else that makes it
difficult. That middle section in E with
the l.h. octaves has mostly a repeat pattern
in the l.h.: E, D# C#, B (anyone
should be able to manage that with
practice), and the r.h. part is just
some chords, so it seems technically no
more difficult than anything else in
the piece.

First of all, the middle section is not in E sharp, it's in E.
And second, it's an octave, not a double.

I think that middle section is the easiest in the piece. I sight-read it at a reasonable tempo (except the measure where the LH changes). I think the greatest challenges in the piece are before and after that middle section.

What, for you particularly, is so difficult about the octaves?

If those octaves are played on a piano with a light action it's not so bad.

My piano has a stiffer action so I needed to keep my left wrist muscles in shape to play it consistently (& take the repeat). If I didn't play it for a week or so, it was back to taking it slow a couple times to "get back in shape".

Once you get your strength built up it does get easier to facilitate.

Absolutely agree that doing single notes instead of octaves is Verboten.

I learned this in high school, mostly by myself, with a couple of corrections by my teacher when I played it for her. Other than that it stood as learned. I've played it since in a couple of programs and it's always an audience pleaser because it's so popular.

Technically it's difficult but the octave section in E isn't insurmountable but it does take practice. Not knowing your technical capability, it's not really possible to assess whether you've tackled something out of your league for the time being or your practice approach is wrong. The LH octaves should be practised separately with 4th finger on the black keys, slowly with metronome until arm doesn't fall off from fatigue. ) Unless you've built up stamina and endurance, this section can cause tightening of the mechanism. When you begin to feel fatigue and tenseness, stop and shake out the hand and arm, relax for a bit, and then resume. It's a lot of fun to play this section and fast LH octaves wows listeners. But above all it should be steady, very rhythmical and not too rushed. Also practise the LH octaves in rhythms to gain more complete control.

Good luck!

This is a very challenging piece. The big problem with the octaves is to keep them quiet AND to have the endurance to keep up the tempo, even at the end of the section. It may seem easy when you play them slowly, but trying doing them up to tempo and all the way through. It's a VERY exhausting experience.

The LH octaves should be practised separately with 4th finger on the black keys....
I used to use my 5th finger. I still use my 5th finger for almost all octaves. If you're going to use 5, play in a little on the white keys. You won't have to move as far.

Of course, this is just an alternative suggestion. I'm not saying 5 is better than 4, except to say that 5 is better than 4 for me. You may experience similar trends as varcon, in which case you would use 4.

But you should, at least, experiment with both to find the most comfortable.

5 was better for me as well. Just get the wrist motion going and 5 is a lot easier...plus there's a lot less to think about.

Depending on the individual hand, a choice between 4 or 5 is available. For those who have not developed the 4th on the black keys, then the 5th finger could be the better and easier choice. Since I practise chromatic octaves with the 4th and use it regularly for black key octaves (not ALL time tho) it is easier for me. When I first learned the Polonaise I did, as some of you are doing, use the 5th finger for both white and black keys. Further technical development changed that so that in general I use the 4th on black keys. My previous post did make it seem as tho that was the prescribed choice. For that I apologize. Small hands would evidently find that very impractical unless very flexible.

"At 53, you contemplate suicide"

I will keep on practicing my LH. I still haven't agreed with myself whether or not to use the 4th on the black keys.
However this piece is a great and inspiring challenge. Also because of 1)the length and speed.2)The fact that it will probably make you sweat a lot from playing it. 3) The amount of time it would take to learn it!
Chopin opus 53 I'll thump you!!!!!!!!

JAM: Yep, you have to have patience and persistence to conquer this piece but you'll certainly enjoy the rewards you reap! Good luck.

It's definitely exercise!
My heart's always beating (thumping) faster at those last chords. Sometimes even a bit of sweat.

I've read that Alexander Siloti's hand was so large that he fingered the lower notes of those octaves 2-3-4-5. Carl Tausig claimed he could play those octaves indefinintely without tiring. Probably he could, and that STRONGLY suggests that various muscles most people use to play those are instead relaxed, or only briefly used, with relaxation between the striking of the notes.

I've heard that when Abram Chasins recorded the piece he brought in his wife* to play the octaves (and as a result lost his recording contract with Kapp records, although they did issue the performance.)

*Constance Keene, recently deceased. Her performances of the Weber sonatas was recently highly praised in a Fanfare review.