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It looks like ABRSM has released a new complete Urtext set of Beethoven's piano sonatas, this time edited by Barry Cooper.

I found an NY Times article available here .

Here is the link from the ABRSM website .

With the addition of 3 early sonatas that Beethoven wrote, it looks like a pretty important release.

I'm curious if anyone has seen this, and whether they would recommend the set? I was looking into replacing my worn-out Schnabel set with a Henle set, but this new ABRSM set looks interesting as well. I'm also curious if anyone who owns ABRSM large volumes can tell me if the binding holds up well, and whether they lay flat.

Thank you very much!

It does indeed seem a very important publication, especially with the copious notes and CD.

I guess after the Schnabel edition, either Henle or ABRSM will be very Urtext (though of course the Schnabel is important for the light it sheds on the thought processes of a great Beethoven interpreter.)

But I'm a bit disconcerted by this "35 Sonatas" stuff. I can see his arguments, but I think I'm getting a bit long in the tooth to cope with the number of Beethoven sonatas being changed!

I saw the new edition in a music shop the other week. It looks quite manageably and well presented. I resisted the temptation to try out opening the volumes out flat though, as I suspect I might then be deemed to have just bought them!

I just ordered it a few days ago but haven't received it. My sense is that each edition has benefits.

Henle is Urtext and that's great - but in learning pieces, it's helpful to have some "suggestions" on fingering, pedalling and such - and that's where some of the editions are great. I actually like Casella (Ricordi) a great deal for fingering - BUT it does not use the most current scholarship - and there are some "wrong" notes and practices. Schnabel is great for looking over his shoulder and getting the ideas of one of the greats - but once again - it's helpful not to confuse his great ideas with HIS ideas.

I'm looking forward to Cooper - but I wouldn't want to rely on just an Urtext edition.

Henle, Casella and a few others also offer sonatas individually which is nice.

kluurs,
I agree that I prefer to have an edition with some suggestions. It's nice to have my old Schnabel to refer to, but I have realized that it is no longer in any condition to take around with me. I'm thinking of getting a nice urtext set and now debating between Henle and ABRSM.

I have the ABRSM Tovey and boy it doesn't like to lay flat at all.

I don't know of any edition that can "lay" anything or lay in any manner. My ABRSM (Bach: WTC; Beethoven: Sonatas, Volume III; Mozart: Sonatas, Volume II), all lie flat quite nicely.

Regards,

This is great, the Henle edition is, what, 50 years old? Tovey and Schenker are even older. There has been some significant scholarship on the Beethoven Sonatas since then!

I think this edition was more successful than ABRSM thought it would be because they sold out quite quickly and it has only just come back into stock. I did have a set on back order from Amazon but I needed some other books for my Renaissance course so I had to cancel. Maybe next month's budget might cover them!

If the books are soft back like the Chopin series that ABRSM do, then they won't lie flat. My copy of the Mazurkas is a right pain to play from.

Yea, it appears they are only selling a softback version.

The Tovey edition actually has a clothback version (as do the Mozart and Schubert's volumes). I would imagine the Cooper will eventually have a clothbound version available.

Bruce, you've got it backwards. Inanimate objects lay, only animate things are able to lie. Sorry. It's the English teacher coming out!

I don't know where you learned English, but I was never taught that these two verbs were distinguished by their subjects being animate or inanimate objects.
I was taught - and subsequently taught my students - that :

to lay is a transitive verb, requiring a direct object (noun or pronoun) :
- to place (an object) in a horizontal position or position of rest
- to put or place (something) in a particular position
I will lay the book on the table.
The hen is laying an egg.
If you lay the baby down gently, she will go to sleep.
Lay your head on my shoulder!
Lay it over there.

to lie is an intransitive verb taking no object
- to be in a horizontal or recumbent position
- (of objects) to rest in a horizontal or flat position.

The book lies (not lays) flat - or doesn't lie flat if it's a Dover edition! - on the table.
The dog will lie (not lay) in front of the fire.
I am tired, I am going to lie down - (not lay down!)

Regards,

Stating simply that I should have used "lie" instead of "lay" would have sufficed. I am hoping your response was meant to be both humorous and instructive and not demeaning and pedantic.

Regards,

Sharon

Some teachers can't prevent themselves - try as they might - from sounding pedantic. There was, however, no intent to demean.

Regards,

Dame Myra, I took the intention to be instructive and a touch humorous, and certainly not demeaning. Perhaps a tad pedantic, but that's Bruce and I for one rather enjoy it . In this case I'm certainly of his opinion on the lay=transitive, lie=intransitive. I just wonder if this could be one of those US English vs English English (& Canadian & Australian) things. Curious - I've never heard of the animate/inanimate thing before either, only the transitive/intransitive.

Anyway, as far as ABRSM editions go, my Tovey-edited WTC lies perfectly flat, and is easy on the eyes, as is my ABRSM Clementi sonatinas volume. I'd be interested to see this new edition, because my Schnabel is also falling apart, and I'm not sure I can afford the Henle

Are the margins wide enough to allow the books to have spiral binding?

My Beethoven is so ill behaved and the margins are not that wide so notes keep hiding in the creases. Both my teacher and I have folded back sections and for some reason it just won't "lie" flat. It would probably be easier to just memorize the darn sonata I'm studying but for some reason the next to last page continues to elude me. (Op. 78, that second movement is really a bugger to memorize. It has those three little alternating hands connecting passages that keep changing and expanding and the last one follows some strange internal logic that is completely lost on me.)My Schnabel is also falling apart. Now I do have the Henle also but I hate marking it up, so my Tovey is my working copy.

Originally posted by BruceD
If I may expand your exposition with a few more examples:

Lay can also be used reflexively, as in
Now I lay me down to sleep

Lay is also the past tense of lie (intransitive)
Yesterday I lay down but couldn't sleep

Past tense of lay is laid (transitive)
I laid my burdens down and slept

Yes, Bruce can really lay it on and I'm not lying!

I was looking for an autograph or facsimile of the 'Pathetique', and Professor Cooper contacted me and said there are no such manuscripts available. I plan to purchase these editions, as well as the ones by Stewart Gordon, which readers should equally explore.

Does anyone know if the pages of the new Cooper Edition are sewn in, or are they glued?

At $88.00 for the set, I would think they would be sewn.


Mel