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Re: learning to keep a steady pulse/rhythm #537079
09/30/08 01:31 PM
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Musiclady, can the rhythm of breathing be involved since clarinet involves breath?

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Re: learning to keep a steady pulse/rhythm #537080
10/06/08 12:56 AM
10/06/08 12:56 AM
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Pianists, can do gym? even do push-up? does it affect the pulse?

I am so thin, u know. I doubt to do push-up,.. LOL


Don't face your problem if it's your face.
Re: learning to keep a steady pulse/rhythm #537081
10/06/08 05:45 PM
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Marching Band wink

Failing that, get a metronome that is small enough to carry, and walk with it.


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Re: learning to keep a steady pulse/rhythm #537082
10/06/08 06:43 PM
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Use a metronome. Have it tick the 16ths if you have to. Anyone trying to learn to play an instrument should be using a metronome most of the time; even advanced pianists practice with them, and practice slowly more than they practice up to tempo. This goes for music, exercises, scales, everything.


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Re: learning to keep a steady pulse/rhythm #537083
10/06/08 06:47 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by SantaFe_Player:
Use a metronome. Have it tick the 16ths if you have to. Anyone trying to learn to play an instrument should be using a metronome most of the time; even advanced pianists practice with them, and practice slowly more than they practice up to tempo. This goes for music, exercises, scales, everything.
Using a metronome most of the time can do more damage than good.


Piano Teacher
Re: learning to keep a steady pulse/rhythm #537084
10/06/08 08:51 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by BruceD:
what do you mean? smile


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Re: learning to keep a steady pulse/rhythm #537085
10/06/08 08:54 PM
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i also call for using a metronome. You could try setting it at 60 80 100 and 120.. and train yourself to recognize those tempos.

I had a rather difficult time 'keeping' a steady tempo once i established it. I'm much better now.


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
Re: learning to keep a steady pulse/rhythm #537086
10/06/08 10:28 PM
10/06/08 10:28 PM
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What is not always understand is that rhythm is a learned activity, just as are other aspects of playing the piano, such as proper posture, reading music, and so forth.

Thus, people learn to read music, and to play the piano, all the while putting rhythm training on the back burner, or on no burner at all.

That is like having a car with four wheels, and being very careful to keep three of them in shape, but not even acknowledging the presence of the fourth wheel until, all of a sudden, they play with someone else, or play along with a recording, or listen to a recording of themselves, and realize that they are speeding up and slowing down.

Basically, when one speeds up or slows down, he or she has learned to do so at those places in the music, just as they have learned to play the notes. It is not an accident...it is something they have trained themselves to do because they have trained without a steady rhythm as a point of pure reference.

That is why working on rhythm is something that is a necessary and integral part of learning to play the piano.

Therefore, I do rhythm training from the very beginning in my lessons. Many of my students are doing quite well w/rhythm, compared to those who studied with me before I began to stress the importance of rhythm training. I changed my focus when I saw many students learn to play, but with erratic rhythm/tempo.

Basically, the things that help are: 1. Using a metronome or drum machine to instill accurate rhythm, and 2. counting out loud while playing. This includes counting out loud with the machine, and playing along with the machine, especially during technique exercises such as Pischna, Josephy and (gasp!) Hanon.
Using a metronome with some music does not seem to work very well, but using it with exercises, and learning to count out loud, does work, and transfers over to the music.

This works because the metronome or drum machine is a fixed tempo which is then learned. That accurate tempo replaces the erratic self-learned tempo.

Then, when playing, the mind has a fixed reference point from which it can sway a bit from, so the player does not sound like a robot. Counting out loud (even a whisper under the breath works) taps into that fixed reference when necessary, and the music is thus as it should be, neither uncomfortably speeding up and slowing down, nor is it robot-like, a common fear which I have not witnessed as a result of using a metronome.

As a wonderful benefit, the player can play with confidence, rather than worrying about tempo changes. That worrying and resulting lack of confidence usually causes stress, saps the life out of the playing, and can itself contribute to erratic tempo!


Piano teacher.
Re: learning to keep a steady pulse/rhythm #537087
10/07/08 03:04 AM
10/07/08 03:04 AM
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Quote

Pianists, can do gym? even do push-up? does it affect the pulse?

I am so thin, u know. I doubt to do push-up,.. LOL
Let me re-up this one quoted.

I need to know any advice or tip of this.
Thanks. This would mean a lot to me.


Don't face your problem if it's your face.
Re: learning to keep a steady pulse/rhythm #537088
10/07/08 04:20 AM
10/07/08 04:20 AM
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I went through a couple of phases. Originally I wasn't aware of my rhyhm being off. Then when I did I played along with the metronome but it was actually background noise. My son, who is in music, said one day "I can't figure out why you have that thing going. You ignore it anyway." I realized that he never plays with the metronome: he turns it on, checks it, turns it off again. I got better at it. The last feedback I got, however, is that I seem to be trying to *follow the beat* but I don't seem to have *internalized the rhythm*. I take that to mean that the rhythm is inside you and comes from there. This has got me going for a while becuase there does seem to be a difference between "following the beat" and "internalizing the rhythm".

I've started to work on a piece which is slow and simple with two melodies weaving in and out. You can't hide anything. Time and again the note of the RH won't be totally in synch with the one of the LH. Instead of "ding" I get "b-ding". I'd manage to get a "d-bing" instead of "b-ding", or almost be on, but the two weren't coming together. Then I counted out loud or tapped my foot, and made both hands come out of the count or foot tapping, and voila, clean "dings". The only thing I can think of is that the rhythm was coming from one centred place finally instead of two hands trying to follow the rhythm. Does anyone have insights into this?

Re: learning to keep a steady pulse/rhythm #537089
10/07/08 08:51 AM
10/07/08 08:51 AM
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When I started my return to piano, rhythm was also a problem for me. My 2 cents:
The metronome is great for setting tempo, revealing rhythmic distortions, enforcing slow practice, and bringing pieces gradually up to speed.
However, for your "internal clock" counting out loud is very powerful in that it engages your well-developed verbal brain centers.

To illustrate: If I asked you to sing the Beatles' "Yesterday" you would probably sing it pretty close to original tempo and it would be highly unlikely that you would speed up or slow down at all. When you count out loud you also give "words" to the music. Many have said that playing any instrument is basically singing at heart.

Also very subtle body movements can provide some "self-conducting"


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Re: learning to keep a steady pulse/rhythm #537090
10/07/08 08:44 PM
10/07/08 08:44 PM
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Central NC
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Quote
Originally posted by soupinmyhair:
Does anyone have problems keeping a steady pulse? I wonder if it may be related to my struggle to count in my head ( and the lack of such really throws off my sight-reading I think).
Anyone have any tips on how to improve this?
No matter what problem you are having.... You can be certain: If I haven't already "been there and done that" I will get around to it...

When I first started lessons I had a devil of a time counting time and playing. My teacher (she is a genius) had me to speak the notes as I played them. (Stanza said, something similar in her post above.) With the method I used, you will also be giving words to the music. The words you give each note are as follows.

A whole note: Stroll
(I am from the South, we say that S-t-r-oo-l)

A half note: Walk

A quarter note : Run

And an eighth note: Go!

And so there was a mental perception of speed, connected with each word and also the time it took me to say the word directly related to the time the note was played.

It helped a lot! Pretty soon my sight reading inproved and my eye hand co-ordination progressed to the point that I was able to actually count the time in the usual manner.

Then... there is the metronome. Every one has their own opinion about the proper use of a metronome. These days, I find them usefull for learning a new piece. The music stores have a wide selection, and they carry an even wider price range. If you purchase a battery operated one....be certain to test the volume. Some are just too faint. (Again, Been there....)

I use my laptop to access my favorite metronome. There are probably dozens of them available on line, but try the link to the one below first. I especially like the volume and the speed adjustments. Oh, one more thing.... It is free!

http://www.metronomeonline.com/


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Re: learning to keep a steady pulse/rhythm [Re: soupinmyhair] #2199505
12/18/13 03:14 AM
12/18/13 03:14 AM
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found this old thread because I am having this problem now
is there anything worse for someone who loves music than not having the tempo right?
my teacher keeps telling me to listen the internal beat, but simply I CANNOT. I feel so frustrated. I do study with the metronome, but problem is when playing a piece without metronome, and with 16th. I dont play them coherently with the tempo given by my 8ths. I lack intenal regular tempo. If I try to tap with my foot or sing it, the melody keeps my attention, and suddenly my foot follows the music and not the regular beats anymore. I make the 16ths too short, too nervous, not equally paced. The piece I have been struggling the most so far is still this, Schumann Reiterstuck,
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=reiterstuck&sm=3
tempo is 6/8, but I am having hard time to keep the inner tempo as it is a sequence of 1/8, pauses, and 1/16ths..
When using the metronome, the first beat of each bar is on tempo, but within the bar the 16th are not evenly paced...

Re: learning to keep a steady pulse/rhythm [Re: soupinmyhair] #2199532
12/18/13 05:12 AM
12/18/13 05:12 AM
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I'd suggest to play it with the metronome really slow in the beginning and force yourself to follow the pulse. You can also help to feel the pulse by playing accents on every first beat. When you can play it evenly paced, turn the metronome up a notch until you reach the speed needed.

I think it's a matter of 'knowing' or 'feeling' the pulse of the piece.


Paul

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Re: learning to keep a steady pulse/rhythm [Re: soupinmyhair] #2199542
12/18/13 05:48 AM
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I can get the FIRST beat right, beat after beat.
My problem is what happens within the bar. I do not keep a coherent pace.

Re: learning to keep a steady pulse/rhythm [Re: soupinmyhair] #2199551
12/18/13 06:57 AM
12/18/13 06:57 AM
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Where do you place the beat? Every 3/8, every 1/4 or every 1/8?
Try it on 1/8 (for the sake of even tempo).


Paul

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Re: learning to keep a steady pulse/rhythm [Re: soupinmyhair] #2199556
12/18/13 07:14 AM
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in the piece above, the pace i set on the metronome is every 1/8. I set it as "triplet" (dont know if this name is correct), meaning the metronome gives a louder sound every 3 beats
another example is Heller op 47 etude 12, but the tempo is 3/4, and I put the metronome every 1/4th
here pag 20
http://tinyurl.com/perq93c
I usually tend to go too fast BUT for some reason i Ignore, in bar 21, where you have 6 1/8th on the LH and 3 quarter on the RH (which should help keep the proper pace, I reckon)I tend to goo too SLOW, never happened before.
And when I listened the piece on youtube, my idea is that they play it TOO FAST. This means I do really lack the internal tempo...

Re: learning to keep a steady pulse/rhythm [Re: soupinmyhair] #2199576
12/18/13 08:16 AM
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Looking at the piece of Heller, it looks like he's going to 6/8 for those two measures (and further in the piece also). Then you tend to play the left as thirds instead of the eighths as it is supposed to be played. It's a mind trick. It's also part of the goal of this etude.

I don't know how to help you with this one. Once again, go really slow until you can play it in the same pace as the rest. It might take a long time to get the hang of it.


Paul

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Re: learning to keep a steady pulse/rhythm [Re: soupinmyhair] #2199597
12/18/13 08:56 AM
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but I can make it technically work. My problem is that I dont have the INTERNAL tempo, something that makes me uderstand is wrong or not. If I set the metronome at the due speed, I can play it. But if it were to me I'd say those measures are played too fast.

Re: learning to keep a steady pulse/rhythm [Re: soupinmyhair] #2387721
02/17/15 11:51 PM
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hi everyone, still the original poster here...
studying the BWv 926 and struggling...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVJgZTCf73c

At 39yo and with a desk job during the day, this piece shows my biggest problem: my lack of inner tempo. It seems I can’t still feel the inner beat, so when during the last bars the 1/8th becomes 1/16th, and I am supposed to play the 12 notes in the same exact bar, my tempo goes all over the places, in a very incoherent relationship with what I had played until then. So my teacher here in Italy makes me play very slow, so slow I cant hear the music anymore. But again, I have problem in listening the tempo of the piece, in understanding that if I played at this speed until this bar, then I should play at this other speed the next bar. I had the same trouble with another Bach piece, where I had 1/8th an the left hand and a trill at the right. The left hand started to get faster, as if following what fingers in the right hand were doing…
What can you suggest besides what's already said? is there a way to increase the perception of inner tempo?
i am really thinking of quitting

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