Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Is listening to a piece before learning it cheating?

check out http://www.andrys.com/hatto.html

According to this, unless I'm reading it wrong, Joyce Hatto's husband, during the editing stage of the recording process, substituted the recordings of other great pianists instead of hers. They say that even she was tricked by her husband. It also says that her concert performances simply didn't match what she released on recordings, so the recordings couldn't be hers.

I really didn't read into this though. If you're interested, a google search on Hatto turned up several sites, I just selected this one to read.

God gave you ears. Use them.

My teacher (who took grand prizes at the William S. Byrd and Hilton Head competitions) says that technique comes from the ears and not from the fingers.

Listen away!

Some of my adult training comes from the New England Conservatory, where the music program considers listening a primary skill. The program is jump-started with a class called "Earobics" which more or less is the guts of ear training (I called it the rudiments of internalization) where "interval recognition" is a specific listening skill distinct from actual ear training.

In any case, three months into my piano studies (I was 33 or 34 at the time), my teacher started me on the Bach 2-part invention in C. I dutifully went out to buy a CD with the all the inventions on it, and the first thing I noticed is that I hated the pianists' tempos, ornamentation, and liberties he took with the piece. In other words, I hated his interpretation and never went back to the recording.

But in all my other studies, post-Earobics, I would seek out recordings, several perhaps, and listen how others interpret pieces as an aid to my own interpretation.

My theory is this -- music is all about internalization. Until is inside of you, you're not going to be able to get it out (at least get it out well). This is what one of my jr high band directors called "singing it in your head." He'd say "what am I doing?" and we'd all chorus back "you're singing it in your head, Mr. Rhodes!" I feel -- and this is my opinion (and lots of others will probably disagree with this...) -- internalization is best accomplished through your ears, not your eyes.

To further expand on the NEC/Earobics method...we'd be asked if we had something internalized. We'd say yes, and then we'd be asked to sing it. About the same time, I noticed in some jazz clinics that some really great drummers would be able to sing (in front of an audience) their drum grooves. In fact, Indian tabla players are taught vocally. Singing it back is sort of like proof that something is internalized.

Thanks againg everyone for all the good advice.

BruceD's comment made the most sense for my situation. I realize that the biggest reason that I need to listen before I learn a piece, other than just the love of listening, is to help with the rythm and note value.

So from now on I will devote as much time as I can to improve that problem, by not relying so much on what I hear and learn note values and rythm better.

Thanks again for the advice

Mike

my previous music teacher used to play new pieces before i chose them...and one piece i chose i heard her play it and thats how i actually learnt the rhythm and timing cause i get confused a bit...

i heard a performance of a piece im currently playing and its kinda giving me ideas but my teacher said that im being influenced by the interpretation and i must play what score is showing and how the composer wrote it...

so i guess it could be good in terms of hearing piece...

I always listen to recordings, especially for the last years, because my teacher doesn't play the piano, he's a baroque guitarist and lute player himself. So, I listen to recordings for two reasons, to hear how it sounds, explore different sounds and performances. I try to find my sound and my approach taking into consideration the period it was written and the composer of course. I agree with Betty about not being hard on yourself, I tend to do it myself and it certainly doesn't help.

Despina

In order to IMPROVE one's playing one must, by definition, make CHANGES to one's playing and NOT rely on intuition (intuition is causing you to play the way you do already). Where does that leave one? Well, you can rely on a teacher to point out how to change/improve your playing, which will mostly be through verbal comments - nothing wrong with that. But I think listening to great artists play the piece you are learning is another extremely valuable tool one can use to grow as a musician. When I learn a piece I hear a mantra in my head - "Don't play it like yourself, don't play it like yourself." I already know what my intuition is capable of - pretty good playing, not great. I think of developing as a musician similarly to learning a language, and listening to recordings as a "language immersion" course where one is surrounded by native speakers who speak their language beautifully. There is so much subtlety to language and music, what might be called accent and inflection, that is beyond verbal description. Learning these subtleties is an osmotic process. Personally, I have taken a clue from jazz musicians and purchased a special CD player that slows down CDs and loops sections so you I can play along (jazz musicians use slow-down CD players to transcribe solos and they routinely play along with great recordings to learn to play jazz idiomatically). I know the whole idea is heretical in the classical field, but I don't care - it's just too powerful a tool to dismiss. Of course, there is no way I will ever be able to duplicate the performances I hear on recording - it doesn't matter - just trying to improves my playing. The worst thing that can happen is that I'll end up sounding like a second-rate imitation of XXXX. The best thing that can happen is that I'll sound like a second-rate imitation of XXXX. Either way, I know I'll be playing better than myself relying on my intuition. Usually I play along with several different recordings, though, which is incredibly instructive, great for ear-training, and avoids imitating just one artist. Over time I believe I have grown and assimulated enough that even my intuition is at a much higher level than it was before. That's what I'm after. I have to add, for me playing classical music is in no way a form of self-expression, but rather a quest to skillfully, accurately, and artfully let the music speak for itself - to play the notes in just the right way that brings out their inherent beauty and power. Great artists are able to do that better than I am, and I have so much to learn from them.

Having said all of this, though, it sounds to me that in your case you need to improve your reading skills if you are unable to play a piece at all without first listening to recordings along with the score. Have you let your teacher know about this? I would suggest forcing yourself to spend a good amount of time NOT listening to recordings and finding a teacher who will help you improve your reading skills. Perhaps even consider isolating, say, the issue of rhythm by concentrating on it alone for a while.

Just wanted to agree with Jerry about :

"I have to add, for me playing classical music is in no way a form of self-expression, but rather a quest to skillfully, accurately, and artfully let the music speak for itself - to play the notes in just the right way that brings out their inherent beauty and power."

Thank you, you gave me the english words for something that I've been trying to say in greek!

Despina

Good for you, Depsina - it takes maturity and humiliity to arrive at this concept. For most of my life playing piano was all about me - wanting to show off and be valued. It took me a long time to grow out of that.

My answer will probably not address the OP's question, but it may shock some people.

I not only listen to as many recordings as possible of a piece I'm playing, I actually play along with the recordings sometimes just for fun. If my playing ever ends of resembling that of a recorded artist I'd be very pleased!

I will listen intently to harder pieces that I know I CANNOT possibly learn off the rack for 1-2months at least, this helps me to conjure enough courage to give me a headstart by removing all doubts and fears of not able to play the piece.

I use this method to pieces that I really like and really want to learn. I do not think it is cheating to listen because the exhilaration you experience when you play is different from the listening experience.

of course I have hit a couple brick walls before ie chopin etude 10/4(tough!) but I will quickly back away from those pieces to avoid further denial.

I passed the grade 3 exam when I was 13years old. I picked up piano again 18months ago at the age of 31years old with no playing of piano in between all these years. But with determination and constant listening to pieces that I want to play & with an able teacher I managed to put a good amount of pieces under my wing.

I have completed chopin's fanatsia impromptu 1 month ago and am working on 10/3 etude. I thought I couldn't have done it without constant listening...I still want to get back on 10/4 etude one day though....that I must say listening alone didn't help LOL !

Geia sou Despina! Ellinas ki ego!

I would have to mention that, although a composer, I find really important for the pianist, and any performer to have their own personality, which will be brought out in the concert, or studio, or wherever. If I needed just "something" to get the beauty of my works (what beauty??!?!?!!?? ) I would constantly be using my samples and not live players. Now that I'm eaherly waiting from somebody to record a DIFFICULT piece of music, my instruction were rather like this:

"1. DON'T take into account the mp3 I made with samples! DON'T
2. Do WHATEVER you want and THEN check with me. Sure follow the score but bring out what YOU feel is needed from the score"

I'm with Despina and JerryS88 on this one - and I agree entirely with JerryS88's views on this. No-one is saying that a performer's personality shouldn't come through in their performance, but, to my mind, it is too big a step to place (as some do here) the performer (oneself!) on a par with the composer. I find irritating the posts which glibly assign characters to pieces of music - you feel that this way of hearing a piece won't change ever in that person's life. This approach short changes the performer and the audience. A musician's relationship with music should be a richer one of discovery and learning not of ego. When you come to think of it, a lot of the "teaching" described or alluded to on this forum is just about that. Interpretations (that grand word) are "discussed" in ways that reinforce the difference between the student and the master.

Humility in the presence of masters. (Perhaps then fewer people would think it fine to dip into world of Bach "for technique".)


John

I don't think it's cheating. It can be very helpful - not everyone is a completely cerebral player who can read music like a book. Do you think this sort of playback of a tune, with a scrolling cursor, would be helpful? http://www.nedgerhart.com/flash/CandlesInTheMoonlight.html If so, somebody ought to put together a site with more typical piano lesson music recorded as "flash" video like this.

Ned

John,

I wasn't aware that we are talking about SUCH personalities and egos! I was merely talking about the fact that each performer is different and this should show in the performance, not that a performer should equal themselves to a composer.

Hope my commens are clearer...

I'm a horrible sight reader, the worst in my theory class to be exact. But I'm very fortunate to have perfect pitch.

I've had piano lessons since 4 years old, but I never liked reading music so I learned pieces by listening to them and reading the music a few times until i memorized it. Its takes a while but I guess everyone learns differently.

My teacher thinks this is how I developed perfect pitch. I also have a pretty decent tonal memory which helps alot with harmonic dictation.

I've also noticed a correlation with pitch and improvisation. The better the improviser, the better there pitch is. which really makes perfect sense if you think about it.


Unfortunately now I'm getting to the point where I have to be able to sight read with exams and what not...I wish I could look at a complicated score for the first time and go through the entire piece.

to those of you that can...thats very impressive.

I listen to a piece before I learn it - that's really how I figure out what I want to play. However I try to listen to several different pianists' interpretations. Once you hear a couple of different ways it is played, I think your mind opens up to more possibilities. This is my experience, at least.