Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Is listening to a piece before learning it cheating?

I seem to have to listen to a piece before I can learn it. Sometimes I have to listen quite a bit to get the piece. I like to follow along with the score.

I do that to try and improve my terrible sight reading. What does everyone think about listening before learning a piece?

Mike

Listening to a piece can help you learn a piece. It can be a guide, but it should not be gospel truth. A problem with listening and copying other people recordings is that your own interpritation can be lost in the process.

I usually listen to a piece before I start learning it to get a feel for how it sounds ect. When polishing the piece, this is the time to turn the recordings off and perhaps record yourself

Matt

Mike,

You can begin by labeling your sight reading without the word "terrible". Your belief is that it is terrible - and whenever you say that you are reinforcing it as being terrible. This dooms you to making improvements. Remove negative words from your vocabulary when you are in "piano time".

The next thing to modify in your thinking and attitude to learning is: I HAVE TO listen quite a bit to get the piece. Let's make a small change there, too. I WANT TO listen to this _____ (put an adjective in) piece.

For connection with the composer and the piece, say gratitude (in some simple way) about having such a _______ piece to explore and learn. Think for a few minutes in a quiet way about what you know about the composer, the piece, and your observations in words (out loud) about what you are finding in the piece as you approach each section. This is respectful and makes the onus on the music and the composer, and makes for you the disctinction that you are preparing yourself to "know - play" it too.

Since you like following along with the score - keep a steady beat with your body as your eyes move steadily across the page. Putting a blue dot in the inner ledger area will place the beat for you. Highlight whatever comes to your attention announcing a change of tempo, or key, etc. (You may want to copy your music for personal use instead of writing on the printed page.)

Does reading by distance and direction help you, or are you working by note names and keyboard locations? Are your fingering choices consistant each time you play? You may want to add more/or change your fingering in the piece to fit your hand and announce your fingering intentions so you won't always be scampering for a finger.

Work in small sections, identify problem areas, work for small improvements. Be vigilant, determined, and patient. (You are in the "construction" business with a hardhat on.)

Developing a piece is going to take as long as it takes, and that is a different amount for each pianist approaching this as a new piece.

When you work above your head, you are adding heavily to the difficulty factor of a piece. When you approach pieces you CAN play on sight, you are giving yourself the experience that is more beneficial to you.

My teaching philosophy would be: "No to pieces you are unprepared for if you have not acquired the skills and possess the natural talents to approach the music with confidence and ability to sight read it well enough.

Pacing yourself in good selections for your present ability level helps you feel the satisfaction and the beauty of what you are doing. Confidence and accomplishment help you travel to the next levels more easily.

Since I don't know you personally, and don't know your skills, or which pieces you are talking about, some of what I've said may not apply to you. I've posted to the situation in general, and hope that there is something that applies to you that is helpful.

Have a plan as to WHAT needs to improve and HOW you are going to do that.

Betty

Maybe not!

When you know the piece well enough to be in the polishing stage, you'll have picked up on tiny details that are maybe very difficult to figure out how best to play them. There might be multiple ways to play those specific details -- and listening to recordings of great musicians can help give some ideas.

But in the beginning... you don't even know those little things exist...

So we should listen to recordings throughout the duration of studying a piece?

Yeah, I think so.

Listening to a recording can be very enlightening, but one can potentially miss so much in the beginning, without having an intimate familiarity with the piece.

Because when you start learning a piece, you might listen to a recording and say, "Oh, so that's the overall tempo, and that's how the piece generally sounds..."

When you have been learning the piece for a while, then you might listen to a recording and say, "Oh, so that's how he plays mm. xxx-xxx, and that's what he does when Mozart writes "fp" on a dotted half note, and oh that's how he coordinates the alternating piano part and orchestra part in this particular spot, and hey, that actually makes some sense why he is playing this other spot ff when it's clearly marked pp..."

I tend to avoid recordings when I'm working on a piece, but will listen to them before to get an idea what it sounds like, or if I'll really like it or not.

Once I've learned the piece, I will listen to other interpretations because other performers may go about things with a different approach than the one I took when I learned the piece. I will then sometimes go back and modify my approach if I feel it's necessary.

The reason for not listening to the piece while I'm working on it is to avoid trying to imitate what the other performer is doing. I would rather work out the emotions in the music myself, and to hear the music as I hear it in my brain. Not how the other person is performing it. I made this mistake when I was younger, and as a result have ruined many pieces in the process.

John

Thank you so much for all the helpfull advice.

Mike

I don't know about all the ideas in Chang's book, but I do believe that it is impossible (simply impossible, I'm putting no qualifiers on the word) to reproduce another person's performance of a piece. You just can't. Chang even gives a mathematical calculation "proving" it (I've never taken the time to go through it and try to understand it). You don't have their body, you don't have their mind, you don't have their experiences. All those things that lie in their subconscious while they're performing are inaccessible to you. You just can't do it.

Besides, listening can help you understand your interpretation of the piece better. I listened several times to different recordings of the Heroic Polonaise. Some were wonderful. Then I saw a guy play it at a competition I was participating in. He was terrible. Sure, his technique was good, but his rhythm was all over the place, it had no flow, it was strained. But you know what, it may have sounded wonderful to him. Which shows that I'm a completely different person than him, and that I see the piece in a different way. You may play a piece where you think rubato is more than welcome, even necessary, where I may see it as being a piece that requires a rock-solid pulse that moves like a train, with a few moments of rubato only for emphasis on a particular note or phrase.

Besides, notes are small little buggers that can easily bleed into each other on the page when you're playing. Who knows, what if you hear what you think is a wrong note in the performance, but when you look at your score you realize it's you who's playing the wrong note, not him. I know that's happened to me before.

If listening to a piece before and during your practice is cheating, I'm a cheater!

Numerous studies have shown that people are not robots that learn alike; instead, there are various ways in which people learn.

To simplify this in regards to your question, some people learn more easily by first hearing a piece played, while others learn by reading the score.

I have found this to be true...I have numerous students who struggle to comprehend a piece, but if I play it for them, their learning of the piece progresses nicely.

If hearing a piece helps you to learn, then listen to it...after all, isn't learning the piece the goal? But make sure that you are using the listening to strengthen your sight-reading, rather than replacing it.

Hmmm...

I'm rather torn on this issue.

It really depends on the maturity and personality of the performer (student).

If we are talking about a rather young, or inexperienced pianist, chances are that he will copy what he listens and not being able to develop his own voice in the performance. But then again, most young, or inexperienced pianists, can't do that, either way, and are based on what the teacher tells them (guidance on phrasing, tempo, dynamics, etc, almost everything).

A more mature or experienced pianist probably can get away from what he hears and be able to control better what he does.

Maybe listening to more than 1 recordings might be fruitfull even more?

To answer the original Q: Absolutely not if you know what you're doing. If you can listen to several different versions it would even be better! However, once you started on learning and playing it you should stay away from the recordings until you have this piece well learned and polished to the point you have acquired your own 'message' or 'statement' with the piece. You would then once again turn to recordings for comparison studies purposes. Well, just one way of learning using recordings as learning/teaching devices.

I have never thought of stopping listening to a certain piece because I am working on it. I don't know what is the real motive behind such a move.

Maybe I will find myself imitating the artist at first, but after polishing the piece and playing through the piece several times, I find my very own interpretation coming through .. at this point it does not matter then how my concept of the piece was formed, be it a recording of a certain artist or any other factor.

In fact, I avoid listening to only one version but listen to many .. and in the end my interpretative choices can be made. This can also help you to avoid the imitation of one artist (as AndrewG mentions above)

It sounds like the OP is talking about actually learning the notes, while some posts are responding with how he will interpret it.

I do not know how long the OP has been studying piano, but it sounds like he is struggling with simply reading the notes and playing them....if so, interpreting the piece is further on down the road, and "ruining" his interpretation is likely not an issue; you can't interpet something that you cannot play.

If listening gets him to play the piece...bottom line, that's ok.

If you want to improve your music reading, learning a piece with an aural reference rather than learning it without is counterproductive. Having that aural reference means that you aren't relying solely on the notes on the page, and you'd probably end up figuring most of the notes out by ear.

If you just want to learn notes, learning a piece with an aural reference is just a way to speed up the process of learning & getting familiar with the music. Interpretation shouldn't even be considered as an issue, because the first impression of a piece is not going to affect your interpretation of it for life. Maybe in the short term you would imitate some aspects of a recording while getting to grips with the piece, but that's easily avoided by learning the notes at a slow tempo or listening to other recordings. (or even MIDI files if it really worries you)

Interesting topic. Even though I'm returning to the piano after a significant layoff, my sight reading is not where it should be given the amount of time I did study.

As a child I would get my teacher to play the piece for me one time. Then, I would no longer read the note timing, just the notes. Then after playing it a few times, I wouldn't read the music at all. Something I plan to try to avoid as I return to studying the piano.

I can sight read, and am capable of developing it. My problem is that it is so much easier to just listen to it first, something I am going to have to deal with as I proceed.

My daughter sings in a choir. She recently brought home some music I am not familiar with. I tested my self and sight sang the music for her and pretty much got it right. I was not complex, but it gives me hope...

I would, on the other hand, say that this is not such a good idea if the original poster is having difficulty learning the notes and note values. If s/he cannot determine note values and rhythms other than by listening to them and copying them from a recording, when is that essential skill ever going to be developed if the recording, as a "crutch", is always used?

I think it far better to spend the necessary time developing music-reading skills; you can't really become a musician without knowing how to read music.

As for using recordings to compare interpretations and to influence my own, I always leave that until I have the notes well in hand and until I have formed somewhat of my own ideas about a piece. That doesn't mean that my own ideas won't change when I hear something else that attracts me that I had not thought of, but I do feel it develops my own skills as a musician if I try to get what I can out of the printed page before I start copying someone else.

Regards,

When I was studying piano as a child, I never listened to pieces to learn them.

When I went to college and sang in the choir and choral society, the director always put recordings of what we were singing on reserve and asked us to listen to them. I found that a little strange, but instructive.

Now I generally listen first to confirm the piece is something I want to play, then work it out from the music. After I have a certain degree of facility with it, I go back to a recording again to make sure I'm not missing something major. I do the same after it is memorized and I'm polishing.

I agree with others that unless you are specifically working on ear training, it is probably best to learn a piece from the music first, but that there are definitely reasons to use a recording thoroughout the process.

Hadn't Joyce Hatto worked out a way to do so?

If you can find me two recordings of the same piece by different people that sound exactly the same, I'll be floored. I have no clue who Joyce Hatto is, though. I'll Google and see what I come up with.