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Natural then Sharp on the same note?????? #523334
06/07/02 03:06 PM
06/07/02 03:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 289
Manhattan
decibel101 Offline OP
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decibel101  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 289
Manhattan
I don't get it,

I'm doing Phantom Rider by William Gillock and for some of the notes there is a natural sign then right after it is a sharp sign??? Which is it? Sharped or Natural.???

Then in the Key signature in the beginning of each measure that note is marked as sharped anyway

any thoughts


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Re: Natural then Sharp on the same note?????? #523335
06/07/02 03:09 PM
06/07/02 03:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 289
Manhattan
decibel101 Offline OP
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decibel101  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 289
Manhattan
Forgot to ask another question:

then in a different piece by William Gillock "Dragon fly" :

The time signature is 2/4 and then there is this bar of 8 sixteenth notes so I'm guessing counting that would be one e and a two e and a , so that works, but then in another bar there is a series of 15 sixteenth notes, if you count the same way then it doesn't end right.

Not sure how to count this frown


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Re: Natural then Sharp on the same note?????? #523336
06/07/02 03:30 PM
06/07/02 03:30 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 836
Irvine, CA
mkesfahani Offline
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mkesfahani  Offline
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Irvine, CA
I can answer your first question, but I don't know about the second. Somewhere in the piece, that note that has a sharp and a natural was probably "double sharped." Anyway, without making things more confusing, just raise the note a half step as you would with only a sharp in front of it.

Mike

Re: Natural then Sharp on the same note?????? #523337
06/07/02 03:32 PM
06/07/02 03:32 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 157
New York
M
Marquis de Posa Offline
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Marquis de Posa  Offline
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Posts: 157
New York
Quote
Originally posted by decibel101:
I don't get it,

I'm doing Phantom Rider by William Gillock and for some of the notes there is a natural sign then right after it is a sharp sign??? Which is it? Sharped or Natural.???

Then in the Key signature in the beginning of each measure that note is marked as sharped anyway

any thoughts
Was the note double-sharped beforehand? If so, placing a natural before a sharp is basically equivalent to first cancelling the double sharp and then sharpening the note. So essentially, the note is sharpened in this case.

Hope this makes sense.

Re: Natural then Sharp on the same note?????? #523338
06/07/02 03:40 PM
06/07/02 03:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 289
Manhattan
decibel101 Offline OP
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decibel101  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 289
Manhattan
it was double sharped before but in a different bar, so I thought that it wouldn't matter...??

So ther is this f natural and sharp, and the bar before it , it had the x next to it which means double sharp. So what is is played now, f natural or f sharp or g????

so confusing =)

eek laugh mad :rolleyes:


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Re: Natural then Sharp on the same note?????? #523339
06/07/02 05:00 PM
06/07/02 05:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 836
Irvine, CA
mkesfahani Offline
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mkesfahani  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 836
Irvine, CA
Quote
Originally posted by decibel101:
So what is is played now, f natural or f sharp or g????
F sharp

Even though accidentals may have been added a few bars before, music is always written with an assumption that it can be read perfectly and at tempo the first time through. For this reason, even if a note is naturaled, it'll still remind you that it needs to be sharped (or flatted) a few bars later. In this case, you know by the key signature that it's F sharp, but it's just telling you "Hey, I'm not double-sharped anymore." I suppose if one could sight read really well, it wouldn't seem as frivolous.

Mike

Re: Natural then Sharp on the same note?????? #523340
06/07/02 05:15 PM
06/07/02 05:15 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,857
North Groton, NH
Bernard Offline
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Bernard  Offline
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North Groton, NH
About your second question: I surmise it's the same situation as arises quite frequently in Chopin's work--a good readily available example is the 1st Nocturne. I don't have the music in front of me, but it's like the 3rd or 4th measure there are 11 notes to be played with the right hand against 6 in the left.

Sometimes it's possible to work out a counting scheme and sometimes it's not. I've heard many different solutions when it's not, but in the end you have to sort of hear it all as one phrase and just let it go. With some practice you'll end up at the right place in both hands.


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Re: Natural then Sharp on the same note?????? #523341
06/08/02 01:56 AM
06/08/02 01:56 AM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 836
Irvine, CA
mkesfahani Offline
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mkesfahani  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 836
Irvine, CA
...or like Liszt's 3rd Consolation. Throughout most of the piece, it's as though the right and the left hand are in different time.

Mike

Re: Natural then Sharp on the same note?????? #523342
06/10/02 01:46 AM
06/10/02 01:46 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,974
Seattle, Washington, USA
jgoo Offline
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jgoo  Offline
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Seattle, Washington, USA
Thats strange. Usually in a new bar, previous markings from old bars (sharp, flat, double sharp, double flat, etc) are automatically canceled. I guess that its just a reminder?


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Re: Natural then Sharp on the same note?????? #523343
06/10/02 01:47 AM
06/10/02 01:47 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,974
Seattle, Washington, USA
jgoo Offline
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Seattle, Washington, USA
Actually, now that I think about it, that kind of thing does seem to appear quite a bit in music.


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Re: Natural then Sharp on the same note?????? #523344
06/28/02 11:16 PM
06/28/02 11:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 28
PA
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Rp18104 Offline
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PA
As for your series of 15 16th notes in a bar of 2/4, I'd say you are probably supposed to play a glissando up or down the piano by turning your palm up and playing the keys by sweeping the back of your hand (usually your 3 longest fingers) rapidly until you reach the ending note. Or else you're just supposed to play the notes extremely rapidly with scale fingering.


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