Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Regarding Beethoven's Appassionata and Waldstein

I know this has been discussed in great detail before as to which is more difficult, and is much more a matter of individual technique than probably anything, but I thought I would share my personal observations;

I finished the Waldstein several months ago and moved immediately onto the Appassionata and finished it just recently. No question for me the Appassionata is the more difficult Sonata. The Waldstein is like a Mozart Sonata times 10 on the difficulty scale, in that the precision and clarity must be to utter perfection to pull it off. This, to me anyway, is what makes the Waldstein so difficult, as the passage work, from a technical standpoint, is not overly taxing. Yes, I agree, the last movement has it moments, namely the glissando 8va's and the 16th triplets. But I never did find the trill passages to be that hard. However my right hand fingers work pretty well, independently of one another. This passage would be brutal if they didn't. Seriously though, does anybody actually play the glissando 8va's as written? I did not. No deneying the Waldstein is a great masterpiece.

The Appassionata is almost the exact opposite, dramatic and passionate, "concerto-like" seemingly impossible passage work and big massive chords. Now this is the kind of piece I can really sink my teeth into and indeed I did. Once I started I simply couldn't stop until I finished. This Sonata captivated me like no other. I absolutely love Beethoven's change of emotion throughout, and the range of dynamics. I find the ingenious use of rhythm particularly interesting. The Piu Allegro ending of the first movement is nothing short of amazing writing, as is the beautiful decending 5th's in the development section. This sonata demands a highly developed left hand, in fact the left hand does most of the technical work throughout the first movement. One exception, the RH only passage work just prior to the Piu Allegro is extremely hard at tempo. The last movement, although not as difficult as the first, requires extreme speed and dexterity. The Presto finale is perhaps the most difficult section in the entire Sonata, quarter note=208, mostly sixteen notes, yes I think you get the picture. The Appassionata was a piece I desired to master for my "bucket list", now that I'm done not sure what's next. Hammerclavier? To my eyes, it looks at least double the difficulty of the Appassionata.

Hammerklavier is undoubtedly extremely difficult.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLRvOnbbpnI

This is a Daniel Barenboim masterclass, part I. This is only about the fugue.

If a composer writes Octaves glissando , I believed you should play them glissandi. Any other way of interpreting it would be on contradiction with the score. If you see a score that demands a simple scale to be played glissando, I'm sure you would play the scale with your 5 fingers. So if there's an octave glissando, I sure hope you practice it and learn this hard technique. I have seen 3rds glissano and 9ths glissando. They are always played the correct way. To break the presto tempo of a glissando would be horrible in my opinion. Just practice , and it will reward you in due time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that even some pros play those octave glissandi as scales? Not that that is correct to do it that way, but that kind of glissando is very difficult to pull off.

Octave glissandi (I've tried...and failed to play one many times just for fun) are much easier talked about than executed. Just saying...

Yes but....first, I can play a octave gliss with my RH, no problem. But I can't with my LH due to an injury many years ago. I have discussed this on this forum. But there's more to it than that. It's already common knowledge that in Beethoven's day the pianos with shallow dip and light actions were much easier to fascilitate. On a modern pianos with a heavy actions, this is a remarkable feat even for someone with very large hands. The reason that this one passage in all of Beethovens Sonata's (that I'm aware) has an alternate (easier) fingering, is because very few people can play it as written. It has absolutely nothing to do with what the composer intended, it has everything to do with what is physically possible or impossible in my case to do, that's all. Unfortunately, all the practice in the world will not make my LH bigger.

Thank you for your input Horowitzian and zoocougar. All I wanted to highlight is the fact that we must try our best to stay faithful to the score and not facilitate the interpretation by changing the way its written. In some cases, as you zoocougar pointed out, the glissando may seem impossible. If you really cannot do it then by all means you choose what's best for you. I just say things like these because I have composed many pieces where I am aware of the difficulties involved but I do not consider any of them impossible. I guess the octave glissando is not an impossible technique but if your hands dont allow you then I will understand. I had written an etude for a dear friend and I remember including multiple sections where I required descending glissando 9ths but I know I can do them myself, and I know for sure my technique is not the best. As a composer, I am just speaking up on behalf of others who want their writing respected. In your case, I have no objections since your hand may not permit you this feat.

Unfortunately, the score is faithful to the instruments of the day which featured much lighter actions than on today's grands.

The octave glissandi are a great deal easier on a period instrument, so the question is:

Which is more faithful to the *intent* of the score? Simply playing it as notated, or achieving the grace and ease associated with a lighter action?

Brendel brings up an excellent point in one of his books - do composers notate the sound, or do they notate the technique? My feeling is that it's somewhere in the middle, as the written score is always an imperfect guide to both.

^ wow Kreisler! Thanks for that Brendel statement. It really made me think. As a composer however, I do believe that there are pieces where difficulties are encountered but where they were not meant to propose a difficulty. In that case, the sound was notated. Then there are pieces, as I was mentioning above where I wrote an etude for my dear friend and I purposely put the glissando 9ths and I believed if I was able to play them after some practice then so could he, and as I mentioned, my technique is not superior to anyone's. Thanks for that statement.

Leonid Hambro, I think it was, would, for some concerto with a big glissando, put his wallet up on the top of his instrument during performance, and use it to depress the keys for the gliss. I think anyone who finds the octaves unplayable on a modern keyboard should make some plastic devices to do the job. Critics would complain, I know. Fie on them.

It's not technique. It's hand size. If your "dear friend" could reach no more than an octave, he or she certainly could not play a glissando in ninths. I really don't understand how this point is so difficult for you to grasp. If I could easily take a tenth, I could probably play octave glissandi on a modern piano with a relatively light action. But that won't work for me, given that a ninth is a stretch for me.

I had already brought out the point that it is ok if it really is indeed impossible for someone to play such a notation due to hand size or an injury; I have no objections to that whatsoever. My friend by the way reaches a tenth just like I am able to do so as well, which is why I of course felt comfortable placing the glissando 9ths in my etude. I was in no way criticizing anyone without the proper acknowledgment that many pianists can barely reach more than a 9th, making things such as glissando octaves on a modern piano a difficult task.

Just for the record, Beethoven didn't write octave glisses, exactly. He wrote a fingering of 1 and 5 for every single octave, which has been taken to mean glisses.

Just asking: how difficult do you rate the 2nd movement of the Appassionata? I found the fast section quite challenging.

^Thanks for that fact. Although I have seen a score where it is notated as glissando with the glissando lines going uupwards on the right hand.
this is the example that you are talking about which has been referred to up to now as the glissando octaves, (which they are not)!

<img src="http://i64.photob...;0" alt="Photobucket">

... ... ... ... ...

It is 100% humanly possible to play that bar above with 1-5 fingers, and there is no glissando here. Please correct me if this is not the bar. Succeeding octaves on white keys only are not referred to as glissando octaves. Villa-Lobos also requires multiple white-key only 6ths in the left hand repeatedly at fast tempo but nowhere in the score does the word glissando show up. Please correct me 'zoocougar' if I am giving an example of the wrong bar, although this is definitely what 'wr' is talking about.

Artur Schnabel Edition also have the 1and5 fingering on every note (not gliss) but recommends to divide the octaves into two hands (note comment). Which is possible without losing a single note. You could grab the first octave with the left hands 1 & 5 (on G) then split the passage into two hands. Of course you have to do some jumping to manage these other chordtones in the G7 chord but it's very possible.
If I get my scanner working, I could upload a sample here, but that's not possible at the moment I'm afraid. Will do later on if someone is interested.

All the Best
Anders

William, the bar 467 which you show is indeed the glissando (LH) which is impossible for me. The fingering 1-5 was written by Beethoven and is "assumed" glissando as wrist octaves are impossible at tempo. Remember this is the cut time prestissimo section. I repeat, wrist octaves are not possible at tempo, which leaves glissando as the only option. Good discussion by the way, thanks for contributing.

Certainly the 3rd variation is the "crux" of the slow movement, not helped by awkward LH fingering and the Db key. However compared to the first movement I found the second movement refreshing easy and quite beautiful.

Czerny confirms that they should be played as glissandi..but provides a simplification for those who can't manage it!
I have heard the octaves played from the wrist on recordings by D'Albert, Andor Foldes (who both slow down) and Cziffra, who plays them almost up to speed!
Arrau would substitute another sonata if he found the action of piano at the hall where he was due to play the Waldstein was not suitable for bringing off the glissandi.

True, but Beethoven marks them 'legato'. If not a glissando, what could Beethoven have possibly intended?

Those infamous glissandi are as easy as pie if the nose helps out.