Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
140 registered members (agraffe, akc42, AnthonyPaulO, AlphaBravoCharlie, amad23, 7uturu, Animisha, anamnesis, Alex Hutor, 38 invisible), 1,278 guests, and 3 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #521351
01/17/09 10:58 AM
01/17/09 10:58 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 52
New York City
steinwaymaster Offline OP
Full Member
steinwaymaster  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 52
New York City
At the beginning of this powerful work, the solo piano plays large chords across the keyboard. I have noticed that these chords are enormous, only capable of pianists with extreme hand span. There is also an ossia, or optional version, with smaller chords. Would playing the ossia be acceptable for performance? I am a professional piano teacher, and I cannot reach those chords. In performances by famous pianists (Horowitz, Rubenstein, Lang Lang, etc.) do they all have the capability to reach the original chords?


“Music . . . can name the unnameable and communicate the unknowable.”
- Leonard Bernstein

-Middle School music teacher
-Private Piano Teacher
-Amateur composer (hobby)
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items
Re: Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #521352
01/17/09 11:58 AM
01/17/09 11:58 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,035
Texas
Loki Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Loki  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,035
Texas
With most, if not all, of the chords at the beginning, the range of span for each hand is within an octave. I don't think this would be "only capable of pianists with extreme hand span." Rather, I would think that most pianists would be able to play this as written. Maybe I just have large hands...


Houston, Texas
Re: Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #521353
01/17/09 12:10 PM
01/17/09 12:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 23
U.K.
Major Offline
Full Member
Major  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 23
U.K.
This is not an ideal concerto for a pianist with small hands; not only are there large chords at the beginning, but thoughout the whole work. Delving through my archives I have found a simplified version of the first movement but this is definitely not suitable for a concert performance.

Of course the pianists that you mention do have the ability to play the chords easily, and there are certain concert pianists who cannot play pieces that they would wish to because of the limited span of their hands.

Re: Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #521354
01/17/09 02:23 PM
01/17/09 02:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 798
United Kingdom
J
JustAnotherPianist Offline
500 Post Club Member
JustAnotherPianist  Offline
500 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 798
United Kingdom
All of the chords are within the span of one octave. Plenty of pianists with small hands have played this concerto successfully. I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Re: Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #521355
01/17/09 02:33 PM
01/17/09 02:33 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,268
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline
Gold Subscriber

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,268
Victoria, BC
I am as puzzled as others about the original post in this thread from a "professional piano techer" (Middle School music teacher). Except for the broken chords beginning at measure 20, all the chords are within the span of an octave and almost everyone, except those with particularly small hands, should be able to play those chords. The playing of four-note chords is one of the staples of intermediate piano examinations. The broken chords should also present no problem by the very fact that they are arpeggiated.

By the way, I have never seen an "ossia" for the opening of this work. Has anyone else seen it? The very idea of an "ossia" in a piano concerto is somewhat contradictory, is it not?

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #521356
01/17/09 03:10 PM
01/17/09 03:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 52
New York City
steinwaymaster Offline OP
Full Member
steinwaymaster  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 52
New York City
I looked at my copy of the concerto, and the first chords are the following: RH: F-Ab-Db, Ab-Db-F-Ab-Db, F-Ab-Db-F. Maybe I have a poor edition. I have the full score. It's probably that my edition is not accurate, I bought in a music shop when I was teaching in France. I have never had to play or teach this piece before now, so I have never closely looked at the score. Can any of you post a link to an accurate score? Thanks for clearing this up.


“Music . . . can name the unnameable and communicate the unknowable.”
- Leonard Bernstein

-Middle School music teacher
-Private Piano Teacher
-Amateur composer (hobby)
Re: Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #521357
01/17/09 03:35 PM
01/17/09 03:35 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,035
Texas
Loki Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Loki  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,035
Texas


Houston, Texas
Re: Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #521358
01/17/09 04:05 PM
01/17/09 04:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 23
U.K.
Major Offline
Full Member
Major  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 23
U.K.
Thank you for the link, Loki. If you look at page 50 about halfway down, these chords are not within an octave.

Re: Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #521359
01/17/09 04:27 PM
01/17/09 04:27 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,268
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline
Gold Subscriber

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,268
Victoria, BC
Quote
Originally posted by Major:
Thank you for the link, Loki. If you look at page 50 about halfway down, these chords are not within an octave.
True, but the original post talked about the opening of the piece.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #521360
01/18/09 03:15 AM
01/18/09 03:15 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 560
Japan
A
Arabesque Offline
500 Post Club Member
Arabesque  Offline
500 Post Club Member
A

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 560
Japan
Interesting. The division of hands in that does seem different to what I have seen. Is that why Rubinstein dismissed it as unplayable. Did Tchaikovsky have such enormous hands? Perhaps later editors adjusted it so that humans could play it. In my old Peters edition the chords were contained by the octaves. I don't have this editon now but it was:
Rh: Db F Ab Db ascending chords
Lh: Db Ab Db

Rh: F Ab Db F ascending chords
Lh: F F, then Db F Ab Db

Rh: Eb Gb Bb Eb ascending chords
Lh: Eb Eb, then Bb Eb Gb Bb

and so on. The chords on page 50 are interesting.


It don't mean a ting if it don't have dat swing
Re: Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #521361
01/18/09 03:27 AM
01/18/09 03:27 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 54
Sydney, Australia
R
raidenciv Offline
Full Member
raidenciv  Offline
Full Member
R

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 54
Sydney, Australia
This must be the edition the original poster has. http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/7/73/IMSLP00697-Piano_Concerto_No._1_in_Bb_Major__Op._23-1.pdf
Interesting.
Anyone know what the story with that is? Which one is the true original?

Re: Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #521362
01/18/09 03:45 AM
01/18/09 03:45 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 560
Japan
A
Arabesque Offline
500 Post Club Member
Arabesque  Offline
500 Post Club Member
A

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 560
Japan
OK. After reading through it's the same score. The only thing is that humungous chord at the beginning. But you can redistribute the notes in the right hand. A few pages later there is a similar two hand block chord in the right hand stave which obviously you play hands together. The stretches on page 50 etc are entirely comfortable under the hand.


It don't mean a ting if it don't have dat swing
Re: Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #521363
01/19/09 08:43 AM
01/19/09 08:43 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,277
Tomball, Texas
J
John Pels Offline
1000 Post Club Member
John Pels  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,277
Tomball, Texas
Bruce, I think that most would agree that an "ossia" in a piano concerto might be contradictory, but what about the last page of the Rach. 3 with the octaves in quadruplets rather than triplets? I have only heard Watts play these and quite impressively, but they are nonetheless indicated thusly in the score by the composer. In the first movement you likewise have an "ossia" and in this case it is more often played than not at around page 23.

Re: Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #521364
01/19/09 09:12 AM
01/19/09 09:12 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 607
UK
Wood-demon Offline
500 Post Club Member
Wood-demon  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 607
UK
Tchaikovsky's original version of the piece ( a re-print of a Russian edition was published by Kalmus) had the opening chords arpeggiated, so obviously a number of solutions for playing them are available to pianists who don't have enormous hands and who might choose to perform the original (which has a number of minor differences, compared with the revised version, throughout the score)in preference to the revision.
Lazar Berman recorded the original version but, surely, this has no advantages over the version practically everybody else plays and is interesting only as a curiosity.

Re: Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #521365
01/19/09 09:20 AM
01/19/09 09:20 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 607
UK
Wood-demon Offline
500 Post Club Member
Wood-demon  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 607
UK
Quote
Originally posted by Arabesque:
OK. After reading through it's the same score. The only thing is that humungous chord at the beginning. But you can redistribute the notes in the right hand. A few pages later there is a similar two hand block chord in the right hand stave which obviously you play hands together. The stretches on page 50 etc are entirely comfortable under the hand.
No. The part indicated as LH chords (arpeggiated) in the original version are much fuller throughout the introduction than in the revision.

Re: Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #521366
01/22/09 02:43 AM
01/22/09 02:43 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 349
Los Angeles
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member
Deus ex Pianoforte  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 349
Los Angeles
Quote
Originally posted by John Pels:
Bruce, I think that most would agree that an "ossia" in a piano concerto might be contradictory, but what about the last page of the Rach. 3 with the octaves in quadruplets rather than triplets?
Or what about arguably the most famous ossia in piano literature; the first movement cadenza? I mean, come on. :p

Re: Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #521367
01/22/09 08:42 AM
01/22/09 08:42 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 607
UK
Wood-demon Offline
500 Post Club Member
Wood-demon  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 607
UK
Quote
Originally posted by Deus ex Pianoforte:
Quote
Originally posted by John Pels:
[b] Bruce, I think that most would agree that an "ossia" in a piano concerto might be contradictory, but what about the last page of the Rach. 3 with the octaves in quadruplets rather than triplets?
Or what about arguably the most famous ossia in piano literature; the first movement cadenza? I mean, come on. :p [/b]
I'm at a loss to understand why an "ossia" in a piano concerto should be contradictory.
Three more examples come to my mind (there are probably others) namely the substitution of chords for the glissandi towards the end of the Liszt A major (hardly ever done, but I have heard a performance where the pianist veered between the two options), the passage in repeated notes in Moscheles' G minor Concerto (where it might be sensible to play the "ossia" if the pianist finds himself faced with an unresponsive instrument)and the coda of the "Emperor" concerto's first movement where the double notes are substituted with an enchanting passage in single notes. Robert Casadesus opined that this ossia was quite lovely (I agree). Maybe pianists don't play it for fear of being thought unable to play the original version...which is hardly very demanding!

Re: Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #521368
01/22/09 02:19 PM
01/22/09 02:19 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,268
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline
Gold Subscriber

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,268
Victoria, BC
Quote
Originally posted by Wood-demon:
I'm at a loss to understand why an "ossia" in a piano concerto should be contradictory.
[...]
I suggested that an ossia might be "somewhat contradictory" in the sense that if a Concerto is considered a work that pushes the limits of the instrument and the virtuosity of the performer to the limit, then, perhaps, an ossia that makes a passage easier may be considered somewhat of a contradiction.

If, on the other hand, the ossia represents a re-thinking of a passage by the composer - for whatever reason - then I would agree, that it may not at all be considered exceptional.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #521369
01/23/09 07:09 AM
01/23/09 07:09 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 560
Japan
A
Arabesque Offline
500 Post Club Member
Arabesque  Offline
500 Post Club Member
A

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 560
Japan
I am still curious about this original version. Does it match the second one posted above? Those chords are appregiated but really the same chords and not a great stretch. It is intriguing to say the least.

Furthermore, discussing ossia for cadenza, both these editions have the simple cadenza which is just C major appreggios over two or three bars. My edition had a fuller and more intricate ossia as I remember which give the option of playing a lot more notes albeit all in C major first and second inversion. I've seen that same figure many times in other scores strangely. That's the only ossia I could see in the No 1. Otherwise it's pretty straightforward two staves.


It don't mean a ting if it don't have dat swing
Re: Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #521370
01/23/09 07:43 AM
01/23/09 07:43 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 607
UK
Wood-demon Offline
500 Post Club Member
Wood-demon  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 607
UK
Quote
Originally posted by BruceD:
Quote
Originally posted by Wood-demon:
[b]I'm at a loss to understand why an "ossia" in a piano concerto should be contradictory.
[...]
I suggested that an ossia might be "somewhat contradictory" in the sense that if a Concerto is considered a work that pushes the limits of the instrument and the virtuosity of the performer to the limit, then, perhaps, an ossia that makes a passage easier may be considered somewhat of a contradiction.

If, on the other hand, the ossia represents a re-thinking of a passage by the composer - for whatever reason - then I would agree, that it may not at all be considered exceptional.

Regards, [/b]
I understand what you were implying now. However, the same could be said of instances of "ossias" in, for example, Balakirev's "Islamey" or Liszt's "La Leggierezza" concert etude. Many pianists adopt the easier version of the relevant passages in Islamey, but I've heard it done only rarely in the Liszt.
In Liszt's 1st Mephisto Waltz there are "ossia" passages (an example of "re-thinking") in the central section which are, in fact, harder to execute than the parallel bars in the main text.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Shop Our Online Store!
Shop Our Store Online
Shop PianoSupplies.com

Did you know Piano World has an online store, and that it's loaded with goodies pianists and music lovers want?
Check it out and place your order.

Special Purchase!
Keyboard and Roses Piano Bench Cushion Keyboard & Roses 14"x30" piano bench cushions Regularly sold for $79 to $100, now only $39. (while supplies last)

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Yamaha PF-1000
by Gavin24985. 03/19/19 09:09 AM
Happy Birthday Lennie Tristano!
by Dfrankjazz. 03/19/19 05:09 AM
“Spring Time” - A beautiful song
by Vũ Trần. 03/19/19 05:08 AM
Piano action issue
by kokatla. 03/19/19 04:31 AM
Practice session of Chopin prelude 3
by baudelairepianist. 03/19/19 12:26 AM
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics190,989
Posts2,808,076
Members92,812
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2