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#50624 - 08/28/07 01:58 AM please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
Joined: Aug 2007
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sfgal Offline
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sfgal  Offline
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San Francisco, CA
Hello everyone, this is my first post here.

I am about to get a used UPRIGHT piano, please help me rank the following brands in order of *** your *** preferences, I know everybody may have different answers, but would like to get some advices on any or all of these brands:

Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons/ Neimeyer/ Young Chang/ Marshall & Mendell/ Kohler & Chase.

Are all above American brands except Young Chang?

I personally wanted to get a European brand/ or a German brand, are these good brands?:

Bosendorfer/ Pleyel/ Vogel.

My budget is less than $10000 USD, I used to play Yamaha before.

Thanks in advance

by the way, love this site, especially the "my boss is coming panic button"!! LOL!!

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#50625 - 08/28/07 05:15 AM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
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Rod Verhnjak Offline
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Ya know, I have never noticed that PANIC button.


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#50626 - 08/28/07 02:38 PM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
Joined: Mar 2007
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tickler Offline
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tickler  Offline
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Chicagoland
Welcome to the forum, sfgal!!

Have you read Larry Fine "The Piano Book"? (See the ad at the right side of this page.) If not, do so! You'll learn a lot about both new and used pianos and specific brands from it.

When buying a used (vintage, unrestored) piano, the most important thing is condition. No matter what brand it is, if the piano's been mistreated for its entire life, it's **probably** not a good bet.

Piano rankings are very subjective. You need to play and listen to the pianos you're considering. Play as many as possible to get an idea of what characteristics you like and don't like.

I suggest that you read LF's book, start shopping, then re-post with more specific questions. That will likely illicit a lot more helpful responses.


Good luck in your search!
Mary


Music should strike fire from the heart of man, and bring tears from the eyes of woman. -- Beethoven
#50627 - 08/28/07 03:17 PM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
Joined: May 2007
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pianobroker Offline
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North Hollywood CA.
Rod
Thats cause,you're your own boss,no need for that button


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#50628 - 08/29/07 03:52 AM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
Joined: Aug 2007
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sfgal Offline
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sfgal  Offline
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Posts: 12
San Francisco, CA
Thanks Mary, I just went online and bought those 2 books, I am sure they will be good resources for me. Thanks again.

#50629 - 08/29/07 04:29 AM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
Joined: Aug 2001
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gryphon Offline
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gryphon  Offline
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Okemos, MI
Quote
Originally posted by sfgal:
help me rank the following brands in order...
[b]Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons/ Neimeyer/ Young Chang/ Marshall & Mendell/ Kohler & Chase.


are these good brands?:

Bosendorfer/ Pleyel/ Vogel.[/b]
First of all you don't want a Pleyel. It's French and we know what we think of them.

Now let's get down to it. Go with the Steinway. As you know, the Steinway & Sons piano represents a quality level that few have matched. It's the company that is the constant target of ridicule but continues to stand the test of time. And it'll be prepped to the nines, because the same technicians working on the local concert hall's Steinway & Sons grand will be working on your piano! This is a comforting thought!

Steinways are higher performance pianos. Ask anyone, they'll tell you it makes a significant difference!

There is attention to detail that you will not see anywhere else, and this translates to the Steinway being an overall better sounding and feeling instrument.

Steinway and Sons pianos are hand made. I think there is way too much focus on "automated precision machinery" construction now-a-days and not on the finished product and who is buying the product. Hand-made construction is essential to a good piano, and anyone telling you anything else is simply using a sales tactic to sell more pianos. If you deny this, then you are naive.

This is a Steinway instrument, and as you know, Steinway & Sons pianos are used in most high-performance venues.

Look at the Piano Book rankings. Steinway ranks in the top tier!

Steinway is simply the best value for the money!


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels
#50630 - 08/30/07 02:37 AM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12
sfgal Offline
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sfgal  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2007
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San Francisco, CA
Thanks gryphon! I will keep that in mind about Steinway. Wow, I really don't know nowadays piano aren't "handmade"!

#50631 - 08/30/07 02:44 AM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
Joined: May 2001
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BruceD Offline
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You know, gryphon, I think - just maybe - she believes you!

Cheers!


BruceD
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Estonia 190
#50632 - 08/30/07 03:26 AM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
Joined: Mar 2007
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tickler Offline
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Chicagoland
sfgal --

Just in case, let me clarify. gryphon is making a joke. There's been quite a flurry of anti-Steinway sarcasm posted lately, and his post is an example of it.

IMHO, Steinways can be great pianos. There are plenty of people on the forum who own them and love them. I'm having a rebuilt Steinway delivered in a couple of weeks. But there are plenty of others who wouldn't have one in their house. Choosing a piano is an extremely subjective process.

And, for ALL used pianos, condition is of primary importance. Listen to the piano to see how you like it BEFORE looking at the name on the fallboard.


Mary


Music should strike fire from the heart of man, and bring tears from the eyes of woman. -- Beethoven
#50633 - 08/30/07 04:11 AM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,346
pianobroker Offline
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pianobroker  Offline
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North Hollywood CA.
sfgal
I think gryphon is quite serious in expressing his views when it comes to pianos. He has very strong opinions and may be a bit over enthusiastic in his last post praising Steinway.
Everyone is entitled to their own personal subjective opinion. You might want to give the other manufactures a chance for peace of mind.
Steinway supporters can be pretty stubborn and set in their ways but I'm sure gryphon can appreciate that there are other great pianos in the marketplace.Oh Well!


www.pastperfectpiano.com
Largest selection in the USA
100+Steinway and M&H grands
Warehouse showroom Onsite Restoration
Preowned & Restored
Hailun dlr.818-255-3145
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#50634 - 08/31/07 12:41 AM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
Joined: Aug 2005
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Craigen Offline
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West Coast
Sherman Clay is likely a Korean product from Sojin, Young Chang, or Samick. Now defunct.
Cline was an old stencil name by Samick in Korea I believe. Now defunct.
Schafer & Sons was a stencil name built for Colton Piano & Organ, built in by Sojin or Samick in Korea, a few by Kimball in U.S.
Neimeyer defunt Korean stencil name.
Marshall & Wendell stopped making pianos in 1953. Too old.
Kohler & Chase stopped making pianos in 1957, too old.
You will not find Bosendorfer, Pleyel, or Vogel in your price range.
Look for a used Steinway, new Baldwin, or a new Yamaha or Knabe.


Piano Technician, member Piano Technicians Guild.
#50635 - 08/31/07 12:59 AM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,683
FogVilleLad Offline
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You might want to check Craigslist.com, too. In our area, there are a fairly high number of listings for used verticals. Most listings appear beginning Wednesdays. Five minutes a day is all it takes, to peruse the most recent ones.

You may want to pay particular attention to listings by people who are downsizing/relocating.

Many of the listings are for attractive - or not so attractive - junk. As with any other used item search, it's a good idea to be prepared to be patient.

Trade-ins are also worth considering. If you check the web sites of dealers listed in the Yellow Pages, you should be able to locate c.5-6 multi-line dealers. I don't know if R. Kassman (Berkeley) lists there, but that site is also worth checking. Kassman has recently registered on PW as "master88er."

It could be enjoyable to make the rounds, auditioning pianos. There are so many brands available here, some with distinctive tonal palettes and auditioning as many as are within driving or BARTing distance should be a pleasant adventure.

Taking a friend along could be fun.

#50636 - 08/31/07 03:01 AM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12
sfgal Offline
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sfgal  Offline
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Posts: 12
San Francisco, CA
Thank you: Mary, pianobroker, Craigen (very good info!), and FogVilleLad (thanks x2).

So Craigen, or anyone, how much more than $10K will I expected to see a used "Bosendorfer, Pleyel, or Vogel"? If it won't happen under $10K.

#50637 - 08/31/07 04:49 AM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,346
pianobroker Offline
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pianobroker  Offline
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North Hollywood CA.
Craigen
You're a master of piano trivia but you missed a couple.
Schafer & Sons /low quality spinets & consoles by the original Kohler & campbell
Schafer & Sons / Schimmel 6'10" (not to many)
Cline was a stencil for Young Chang
It's funny,people in L.A. think Schafer & Sons was a big piano manufacture.
My friend was one of the attorneys representing Daewoo / Sojin againest Vern Schafer.


www.pastperfectpiano.com
Largest selection in the USA
100+Steinway and M&H grands
Warehouse showroom Onsite Restoration
Preowned & Restored
Hailun dlr.818-255-3145
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z8RvhXGKzY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Voo0zumHGgE
#50638 - 08/31/07 08:18 PM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
Joined: Aug 2005
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Craigen Offline
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Craigen  Offline
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West Coast
Pianobroker,
Schafer uprights (per original poster) made by Kimball, Kohler & Campbell, Aeolian, Sojin, Samick, and likely others. A few grands by Schimmel.
Right on on the Cline.
Sorry your friend's firm lost bigtime.

Sfgal,
Finding a used Bosie upright in the U.S. is proverbial needle in the haystack. If less than 30 years old would still sell for over your $10k. New ones, when in production, list at over $45k. None produced for a couple of years now.

I am not a fan of the Playel both mechanically and tonally and cosmetically. Fairly obscure in the U.S. New 45" list at $11,000.

Vogels only debuted a couple of years ago in the U.S. Not sure if they are even shipping at this time. New uprights 45"-48" listed $10-$12k.

You may find the odd used Schimmel upright 10-20 yo in the $10k range. Far superior to Playel or Vogel.


Piano Technician, member Piano Technicians Guild.
#50639 - 09/01/07 02:05 AM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,346
pianobroker Offline
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pianobroker  Offline
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North Hollywood CA.
Craigen
My friends firm didn't lose on attorney fees but you know Vern Schafer's counter suit/ trademark infringement judgement was overturned by the Appeals Court. In conclusion nobody collected anything except the lawyers.
I think Daewoo Sojin had a bitter taste as to dealing with Americans after that. You notice they dropped out of the piano business altogether.


www.pastperfectpiano.com
Largest selection in the USA
100+Steinway and M&H grands
Warehouse showroom Onsite Restoration
Preowned & Restored
Hailun dlr.818-255-3145
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z8RvhXGKzY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Voo0zumHGgE
#50640 - 09/01/07 04:54 AM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
Joined: Jan 2007
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turandot Offline
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torrance, CA
sfgal,

A used Pleyel vertical should be do-able under 10k. There was a 4-year-old Pleyel on Pianomart.com for the longest time with an asking price of 9k. Coincidentally, it was in SFO. I don't know if it is still listed.

There may be other Pleyels available in your area too since Piedmont Pianos is one of their few retail outlets in the US. You should sample a new one at Piedmont to see if you really like them before you start hunting around for them. They have a pretty distinctive sound profile. They are not a "WOW" kind of piano.

Best of luck


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
#50641 - 09/03/07 02:29 AM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
Joined: Aug 2007
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sfgal Offline
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sfgal  Offline
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San Francisco, CA
Thanks turandot, pianobroker, and Craigen..

You guys are so knowledgeable and helpful thumb

#50642 - 09/03/07 08:56 PM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
Joined: Apr 2004
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fong ll Offline
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Santa Clara
Sfgal

you shoul try Seiler and Kawai at Carnes in san Jose, see Ming, he real good guy and low price too. He sell me two seiler piano and I like very much. I try them all too.

I not like any of the piano you select xcept the bosendrofer, it is good.

most of the brands you talk about are made for low quality price, not good.

Yamaha you say you had is good too.

#50643 - 09/03/07 09:29 PM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 128
JWP Offline
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Delaware
Hi sfgal,

If you are looking for the German / European sound you should also consider Petrof, Bohemia, and Schimmel. The Schimmel may be a bit pricey. These are all nice sounding pianos.

Good Luck, John


Bohemia Concerto 132
#50644 - 09/03/07 11:10 PM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
Joined: Aug 2001
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gryphon Offline
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Okemos, MI
Quote
Originally posted by BruceD:
You know, gryphon, I think - just maybe - she believes you!
:p


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels
#50645 - 09/05/07 12:31 AM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
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water Offline
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Where is the panic button

#50646 - 09/05/07 01:23 AM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
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#50647 - 09/05/07 07:15 AM Re: please help me rank:Steinway/Sherman Clay/ Baldwin/ Wurlitzer/ Cline/ Schafer & Sons.  
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Louisiana, USA
I would look at Petrof, which is having some legal difficulties with its marketing partner(causing many dealers to want to liquidate their inventories), or Charles Walter, which has an excellent 43" studio that sounds like a 50" upright. The Schimmel upright is the best of them all, but may be out of your price range, unless you luck out with a private seller that wants to move his piano.


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