Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.

Eh... no, not really.

It's much more that that. (kind of hard to explain)


In regards to Ashkenazy: his father was Jewish (obviously - what a name!) but his mother was not Jewish.


Here's a list of famous Jewish pianists (since someone asked about Jewish pianists - I bolded some of the big ones):

Charles Alkan
Vladimir Ashkenazy
Emanuel Ax
Victor Babin
Gina Bachauer
Dmitri Bashkirov
Daniel Barenboim
Simon Barere
Boris Berman
Lazar Berman
Victor Borge
Alexander Borovsky
Alexander Brailowsky
Yefim Bronfman
Ignaz Bruell
Shura Cherkassky
Harriet Cohen
Bella Davidovich
Misha Dichter
Samuil Feinberg
Vladimir Feltsman
Annie Fischer
Leon Fleisher
Yakov Flier
Claude Frank
Ignaz Friedman
Emil Gilels
Grigory Ginsburg
Leopold Godowsky
Alexander Goldenweiser
Richard Goode
Gary Graffman
Mark Hambourg
Clara Haskil
Myra Hess
Vladimir Horovitz
Eugene Istomin
Byron Janis
Joseph Kalichstein
William Kapell
Julius Katchen
Mindru Katz
Louis Kentner
Evgeny Kissin
Vladimir Krainev
Lili Kraus
Wanda Landowska
Ruth Laredo
Josef Lhévinne
Rosina Lhévinne
Radu Lupu
Hephzibah Menuhin
Benno Moiseiwitsch
Ignaz Moscheles
Murray Perahia
Menahem Pressler
André Previn
Michael Roll
Moritz Rosenthal
Anton Rubinstein
Artur Rubinstein
Nikolai Rubinstein
Harold Samuel
András Schiff
Artur Schnabel
Peter Serkin
Rudolf Serkin
Abbey Simon
Solomon (Cutner)
Wladyslaw Szpilman
Mark Taimanov
Carl Tausig
Sigmund Thalberg
Rosalyn Tureck
Isabella Vengerova
Alexis Weissenberg
Paul Wittgenstein
Maria Yudina

http://www.jinfo.org/Pianists.html

Geezus H Kryst!! (er..sorry), are there ANY pianists that arent jewish?!?!

Oh, of course.

Sviatoslav Richter
Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli
Glenn Gould
Earl Wild
Georges Cziffra
Claudio Arrau
...


But yes, there are lots of Jews in music (go to that website I posted for a list of conductors, violinists, cellists...). Quite remarkable, considering the relative tinyness of our population.

Wow Sam - you really did your homework!

I think I know what you mean. I'm not Jewish but I remember a conversation I had with a Jewish friend years ago. We were talking about the Messiah, and he said something along the lines of "maybe Jesus was and we missed the boat." I asked him if he thought that why didn't he convert. He said, "Because I'm Jewish." It was the way he said it, like it was something totally immutable, more than a belief or an identify, more like the very life and substance of his flesh and bones.

Actually, the "it's more than that" idea is far more recent than most people would think. And I bet, with some insight and a bit of 20th century historical knowledge, just about anyone can figure out where the change came from.

In fact, ever since the ancient kingdom of Judah was no more, the terms "Jewish" referring to an inhabitant/descendant of Judah, and "Jewish" referring to followers of the religion, have been confused. It was furthered in the Old Testament, and now is also compounded with the wonderful trouble of being Hebrew. Somewhere, "Jew" and "Hebrew" became one and the same. The latter is a person belonging to the worldwide group claiming descent from Jacob. The former are converts, which is a religious implication, and not a genetically-traceable nationality/ethnicity. Yet still, these people claim it for whatever personal reasons...to "belong to the group" most-likely.

Now, there is great confusion as to who is a Jew, who is Hebrew, and who is an Israelite, and they have all, sadly, become one and the same. But the DO NOT share the same exact lineage. This wonderful collage of peoples lumped together into one mosaic occured during the Captivity and Restoration.

More recently, all of this history was lost because of the events of World War II, and now anybody who ever visited a brother of a sister of an uncle who lived within 300 miles of Israel, Germany, or the land between can and will often claim Jewish descent.

But there is STILL a distinction between the religious practice and being descended from those original peoples from Judah. This is why, when someone tells me they're "Jewish", I often will ask if they mean their religion or their descent. Because there is such thing as a Catholic Jew (where Jew is ancestrally used), the same as there is a Russian Jew (where Jew is primarily religiously used). Of course, there's also the Russian Catholic Jew (which, of course, ignores the schism in the church, but more importantly, where Russian and Jew claim ancestry and Catholic describes the religion).

So, yes, it is fairly complicated thanks to modern (and not-so-modern) history, but in its pure form, it is as I described.

Derulux, when most people talk about "Jews" they aren't talking about Christians who descend from Judah.


When someone talks about "Jewish pianists", for example - you know what they mean by "Jewish."

But defining what it means to be Jewish - in the sense of the Jewish people (not just anybody who happens to descend from Judah) is very complicated - you're right. It's not just a religion. It's a people. A nation. A culture. A Jew who leads his life strictly according to the Torah is just as "Jewish" as a Jew who does not practice at all. A Jew from China is just as Jewish as a Jew from the United States. A black Jew is just as Jewish as a white Jew. A person who converts to Judaism is just as "Jewish" as a Jew who is a direct descendent of the Temple Priests.

It's an identity. It's a people. Well, there aren't really such good words to describe it. But it's definately more than just a religion.

I'll concede that, basically, we're saying the same thing...except for the phrase 'a nation'. If you could point to the Jewish 'nation' on a map, I'd quit playing the piano for life. (Unless you pulled out a map that had Judah on it, and pointed to that. :p ) Nation, as used in describing someone's nationality, is not applicable in the sense of the Jewish community, because they have not had a nation since Judah. The closest thing they have is Israel, but then, those people are Israeli by nationality (not to be confused with Israelites).

This is why it is entirely possible to be a Russian Jew (and not simply Jewish). A person who lives in Russia is Russian by nationality. They might be African by ethnicity. And they can still be Jewish by religion--which unfortunately lumps them in the Jew community, in that the certain assumptions society makes based on the words "Jew" or "Jewish" are entirely inaccurate.

That's why I make the distinction when I'm talking to someone...and half the time, the person I'm talking to doesn't even know the answer. I say "Judah" and people stare at me like I said, "Aliens landed in my back yard."

The term has been grossly misused throughout history, and, unfortunately, even though it's popular, societal uses are generally incorrect.

Yes, it is definately possible to be a Russian Jew, or an American Jew, etc.

When Judaism is referred to as a "nation", it's not exactly like Canada or Israel or Poland...

It's because it's so hard to explain what Judaism is that we use all of these words like "nation", "people", "culture", "tradition", "identity", "religion", etc. But none of those words are perfect descriptors, and they don't always mean what you think they might mean.

Even "religion" isn't a perfect descriptor, because a Jew who lives his life "according to the Torah" is just as Jewish as a Jew who doesn't practice.

"Culture" and "Tradition" aren't quite perfect, because Chinese Jews have a different culture than Ethiopian Jews.

"Nation" isn't quite perfect, because most people tend to think of 'nation' as a geographic location, and this Judaism is not. It's a nation in the sense of being a people, and being born into the religion... for example, you are American if you are born in America, regardless of how you view yourself and America. If you don't want to be American, you can emigrate... you are still technically American, as you were born in America, but you can emigrate and "leave" the American nation. If you are not born in America, you are not American, regardless of how "American" you might seem. If you immigrate to the U.S., though, then you are an American. It's kind of the same way with Judaism, thought not exactly identical. It's not a perfect descriptor, but it does in part help explain what it means to be Jewish. But Judaism is so complex - it's hard to come up with a list of words that perfectly explain it.

No, you use it incorrectly.

You're using an archaic term. Today, the Jews are members of Judaism - of the "Jewish" people. Not just any descendent of Judah.

You're right - the term has changed over time. It has changed... (or rather, one definition - that of Judaism as a people - has remained and evolved, and the other definition - any descendent of Judah - has become archaic) and that's a great reason why most people you talk with don't know what you're talking about when you ask what they mean by "Jew." You know what they mean by "Jew" (well, not entirely I suppose - but you know what they are referring to), and to ask them if they are just a "descendent of Judah" is simply showing off your historical knowledge of the evolution of the word "Jew."

Well, to answer the OP's call for actual empirical responses for his personal study: I'm bisexual, leaning towards gay. It's impossible to tell my orientation from the way I look or act (except, of course, for the fact that I play the piano ).

Btw, all the posts that begin "I'm not gay" remind me of the Seinfeld quote: "Not that there's anything wrong with that!"

No, you see...that's precisely it. It is because I know the many referrals of "Jew" that I ask the question. It is not "showing off" as you put it, but rather, a desire to know exactly what a person means when they say "Jew", because, by and large, it is an abused word.

I equate it to verbalization. Over time, incorrect use has become accepted use, and accepted use has become correct use, but in formal diction, even that is unacceptable. So many former nouns in the English language have become verbs that their governance has grown slack because the uninformed majority cannot fathom the proper use of a word. So it goes with "Jew", so rather than assume someone purely means religious connotation, or purely means ancestral descent, or purely means culturally, or any combination thereof, I take it upon myself to ask precisely because I do not like to infer.

john,
our families came to america as part of the same migratory wave, and our grandparents could have been born in the same shtetl in europe. my paternal side settled in milwaukee (golda meir went to school with my grandmother) and the maternal side in brooklyn (they were from budapest, actually).

it would be interesting to see what proportion of the world's great musicians come from this small pool of eastern european jewish stock. there are many professional musicians in my family, and most of their musician friends were also from this part of the world.

oh, yeah, and some of them were gay! (horowitz definitley was.)

Why are so many great pianists Jewish? And the same for other instrumentalists? I also point out that a large preponderance of the top chessplayers throughout history have been Jewish.

I'll take a stab at the reason: scattered about in the diaspora over aeons of time, and often persecuted without reason, the Jews emphasized education and the arts as coping and survival mechanisms.

Even in the present day, when survival may not be threatened nearly as much as before, the custom of emphasis on education and the arts continues to percolate throughout Jewish families.

I'd never claim anything innately superior for the Jewish people (and I'm Jewish) -- that would simply be blatant racism, without any foundation at all.

Yes, I think it might have had a little to do with "coping and survival mechanisms" in the shtetles, though we fortunately aren't having to fight as much today for our survival. But I'm not sure that's really one of the big reasons.


I do strongly agree with you that there is nothing innately superior about being Jewish. We're the "Chosen People", because God chose to give us his commandments... (there's actually a story that God had "chosen" other people for the commandments before, but they all didn't want them... so by the time he got around to asking the Israelites, he was so frustrated, that he just threatened to kill them by dropping a mountain on top of them if they didn't accept the commandments... :p ) but Jews certainly aren't "better" than others, just because we're Jews.


It's an interesting question, for a population so relatively small (last time I checked, 0.25% of the world population and 2% of the U.S. population), why we are so well represented in the arts, literature, science (look at Nobel Prize winners...), politics, etc.

Well, the initial answer isn't so difficult as you might imagine. You've heard of the derogatory terms, "Being Jewed", etc? Well, they all stem from the Middle Ages, from Jews' supposedly extortionate practices as moneylenders.

Of course, it wasn't until the 19th century that a the "Jewish Disability" was lifted and a Jew was allowed to serve in British Parliament.

But that aside, noting the fact that Jews were moneylenders says one thing: they had money. And cash flow turns the world. Money, during those times, led to education, and education to art. It's no coincidence the best artists were also among the most educated. Later, as more people became educated, more artists emerged, and money became less of a factor. Still, most artists lived in some form of at least a middle-class existence, and many of the greats in some form of esteem or luxury.

With history comes heritage, and the trend continued to be passed down through the generations.

Now, how Jews came to be moneylenders is a different story...especially in countries dominated by other ethnicities and nationalities and religions. And that is probably a trickier question.

That's exactly the question I was thinking while reading your post.

This thread has me scared and afraid!!! After all the discussions, trying to focus on the title and comments, I think I may have it worked out.

The part about being a gay pianist must be linked somehow to the circumcision process, is that a safe assupmtion? Or is it that all uncircumsized men that play the piano are straight, but not very attractive, unkind, uneducated and hate the arts?

Bi-sexual piano players would then have to be sort of educated, quasi-good looking, but not very educated.

Transexuals, do they play piano or not? I guess it depends upon whether they eat pork and shellfish. Someone help me understand this thread...

Did you happen to see this article , Sam? Made the news a couple of months back, but I haven't seen anything on it recently.

Theodore... huh?

What is the link between circumcision and being gay?


Jewish males are circumcised, but that doesn't make us gay. If it did, we'd be in a lot of trouble in terms of marriage and making babies!!!

Not all gay people are circumcised, and I'm not sure how circumcision would make someone gay.