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I am 1.5 years into lessons. When a piece has the same note played 3-4 times (for example 4 quarter notes of Middle C one after another) my instructor has me alternate fingers, with the explanation being that this improves tone.

However I read that this is a technique from yester year (as several hundred years ago) and not really necessary today. What are your thoughts - do you all who have played much longer than me do this or not?

There are several reasons for changing fingers on repeated notes, but the two that I think are the most important are:

• Changing fingers makes your hand more relaxed, since some people's hands tend to cramp up when doing repeated notes with the same finger
• Using a different finger creates a full attack on the repetitions. If the same finger was being used, many wouldn't lift the finger completely and the tone of the attack would suffer as a result.

The part about it being an old technique is true, but only to a certain extent. In modern pianos a device called the repetition lever allows one to play a repeated note without fully letting off the key between repetitions. On early pianos, the key action couldn't handle that - you had to let off the key completely before you could play that key again. Using another finger in this case would allow you to repeat faster.

Yes, I agree.
Although this is a technique that was used in the " yesteryears", it is still very important today. It allows a full tone on each of the notes, and its good training for your hands. Once you start getting into really crazy stuff, you will need this techniaue to get quickly repeated notes in without it sounding strained.
Just keep working at it, and soon it iwll feel natural!

I have found this technique to be beneficial, and sometimes indespensible. Yet in my opinion it seems to be applied mindlessly to every instance of repeated notes (as far as indicated fingerings in books) even in instances where it complicates matters needlessly. There's something to be said for training your fingers to alternate on the same key, but you also need to be able to make a good consistant tone with the same finger on one key. Whith chords you even have to be able to do it with more than one finger at a time. In short it's my opinion that this technique, like any, should be applied with a purpose. There's no technique that's right for every instance.

[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: Joe ]

I just came across the following passage in Piano Technique, by Lillie H. Philipp (Dover, 1982 reprint of 1969 original MCA publication; p. 54):

"Well into the twentieth century, the rule existed to change fingers when repeating the same note several times. For the clavichord this rule was justified. If the player changed the finger when repeating the same key on the clavichord, it would creaste a peculiar vibrato (Bebung) as the string of the clavichord responded to modulation even after the finger had struck the key. Not so with the pianoforte. Once the hammer has hit the string you may just as well hold the key down with a broomstick.
"Hans von Bulow, pianist and conductor, who had been Liszt's student and who became his son-in-law, adopted the rule of changing fingers whch was accepted universally. Today we know better. If the student creates the desired effect without changing fingers, he should not abide by this outmoded rule."

I'm not sure I agree with all of that, and if you want to stay on good terms with your teacher, you should probably do what he/she suggests (or find a teacher who suggests things you feel more comfortable with). The bottom line, however, is what you produce musically at the keyboard, with some consideration given to the amount of strain you put on your body. Your teacher's job is to keep you from having to "reinvent the wheel", to facilitate your reaching your potential by showing you what others have discovered, and you'll probably make faster progress by following his/her instruction. Just keep in mind that there often are many ways to accomplish any goal.

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Palindrome ]

Mark,

Wait 'till you tackle a Scarlotti Sonata, then you'll see why. My daughter is learning one now, and it's driving her nuts with repititions. Scarlotti - the king of repetitive notes, uses the 4321 fingering liberally. There is so much repitition in many of his compositions, you have to follow the alternate fingering technique, or your hand would cramp up altogether. This repitition however, is not so easily achieved on an upright, and the temptation, because most upright actions lack a repetition lever, is to pound away on that single note with the same finger.
That may be okay, until you have to perform the piece, on what is usually a grand. So it is a good practice, for all the reasons stated by others in this thread, to maintain the fingering as noted. This is especially good for the 4th finger, which always seems to be the harderst to whip into shape.

Jamie

Wow, changing fingers like that sounds very difficult. So far, my teacher hasn't suggested that technique, even with Scarlatti. But I'm fascinated that anyone could even pull this off. A piece I was thinking of studying is Chopin's waltz opus 18. There are quick repeated notes in the very first couple measures, if I'm not mistaken. Are those notes typically played in this manner? BTW, this piece may still be too much for me, but I was just wondering.

I don't think there's any other way BUT to change fingers on each repeated note in the Chopin Op 18, to get both the lightness and transparency desired and the accents in the right place.

It's not so much the repeated notes in the first measures but those that appear in the second section (that starts with the repeated E flats) and similar sections throughout the piece.

Regards,

you HAVE to use different fingers for fast repeated notes! it's the only way to stay relaxed when playing them.

another reason to use different fingers on repeasted notes that no-one has mentioned would be to prepare your hand and fingers by putting them in a new position.

Reading this thread, I just remembered that a good introduction to repeated notes is Bartok's "Bear Dance." http://www.midiworld.com/bartok.htm

I remember, as a youngster, that this piece was tiring even with the finger changes!

All of the points of view on the topic are wonderful! There are some great pianists here, obviously, covering everything from the problems inherent in the old Viennese instruments (I'd add key-dip differences perhaps), to aesthetic considerations.

The only thing I would add, albeit obvious, is that the majority of print music "perpetuates the myth" so to speak. The old plates that are still used by Schirmer, Peters, Kalmus are often based on 19th cent. editions, where fingerings were added by editors of their era (and pedal, phrases, etc.). They still keep cranking out this stuff, even under the guise of "urtext." Even Henle had to backtrack on their Urtext editions of the Bach WTC, as their editor added fingerings, so they came out with a true urtext without fingerings (fingering implies phrasing, so even though they don't use phrase markings, the damage is done).

Many teachers, perhaps those that don't know any better, do not realize that the fingerings are editorial in most cases, and not jotted down by god to be learned without reasoning the purpose.

Unless the tempo is very fast, I rarely change fingers on repeated notes. Even in faster things such as the repeated notes in the Beethoven op. 57, I find that I can use quick wrist strokes and get more control. There's less mental anxiety about changing fingers and is also physically less cumbersome (for my hands).

Alternate fingers on repeated notes is a useful skill. But when approaching a new passage, I think it is worth asking whether it is better than using the same finger in that context rather than assuming that alternate fingers is always best.

Using the same finger has the distinct advantage of being more accurate, and you don't have to worry about playing the right combination of fingers so that you end up on the right one. I tend to use same finger much often then alternate fingers for just both of these reasons. This includes Beethoven's Op. 57 as Brendan mentioned, and even Chopin's Op. 18 - a light, quick wrist stroke is all that is needed.

I don't think that using alternate fingers prevents too much tension, that is solved or at least helped by using the correct wrist motion. Alternate fingers is more a way of allowing the note to rise enough that it can be played again, as was mentioned earlier in the thread. Often, the wrist action can be more important than the fingering.


Ryan

Good tips, everyone. I also wondered if the finger alternating/changing rule should be applied to repeeated CHORDS to improve the attack.

I am thinking NO, because it will be much more difficult to switch to a new set of fingers. Most sheet music doesn't suggest that either.

I also watched Horowitz plating Scriabin 8 No. 12 (Carnegie Hall tape.) doing the repeated notes - no finger alternating.

Yes!!!

Said better than I ever could.

My favorite (grimace) repeating note section is in Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue. Took me weeks to master back in my youth, then when I was about to perform it for the first time I stove a couple fingers on my right hand playing football. (Yes, Ryan, I am injury-prone! Comes from that form of stupidity common among weekend warriors.)

Right! Hi. Can somebody please please help me with the repeated notes in Chopin's Eb Major waltz???

I started it this week and I am anxious to really make it 'polished' enough for a performance, but I can't seem to figure out a *good fingering* system for the repeated E-flats in the second section. I am always very careful about fingering but I'd really really appreciate if someone would help me.

I think this actually came up on the forum some other time but I tried searching and I can't find it...wish I'd paid more attention!

313131
or
212121
or
333333

I use 444444 on the first group and 333333 on the rest.

cheers guys- ill try it and see if it works...was trying to figure out something much more complicated using four fingers...trying too hard i suppose!