Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
51 registered members (alfredo capurso, barbaram, A Guy, alphonsus, beeboss, 7uturu, 14 invisible), 1,412 guests, and 9 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
#485386 - 11/30/07 02:18 PM Training beats Talent  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Kreisler Offline
Kreisler  Offline


Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
I have believed this for many years, and I believe very strongly that the same is true not just for academic subjects but for musical talent and training as well.

It's right in line with everything I've seen over the years. The "growth mind-set" is something I've seen in every good student I've ever worked with. (It's also something I see in myself. I've had a far more successful musical career than many people of greater talent, simply because I work hard.)

And now, there's some research on the subject:

The Secret to Raising Smart Kids


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#485387 - 11/30/07 02:38 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,166
pianist.ame Offline
1000 Post Club Member
pianist.ame  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,166
Singapore
Yes, I believe in that as well. I have the talent for music but for many years in the area of playing the piano, it went uncultured and did help but just a little. After moving here, I got a new teacher and she saw my talent, took it and helped it grow at the same time pushed me to my limits, sometimes over the edge to see what I was capable off.

It was'nt so much of the talent but more of the extremely intensive training that I've had since I started piano under her. If i never moved here I guess i would have somehow reached this stage but not that soon and my pieces that I play would'nt be as refined and clean.


Mastering:Chopin Etudes op.10 nos.8&12 and op.25 no.1, Chopin Scherzo no.4 in E major op.54, Mozart Sonata in B flat major K.333& Khachaturian Toccata
#485388 - 11/30/07 02:46 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keyboardklutz  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Anecdotal research from what I can tell. Yes, enduring (or even having a talent to endure) boring mundane work WILL get you somewhere in a system where boring mundane work is rewarded. That's the only message I get from this 'research' and yes, plenty of it goes on in music.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#485389 - 11/30/07 02:56 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 18,137
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012
Monica K.  Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 18,137
Lexington, Kentucky
Quote
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Anecdotal research from what I can tell.
Actually, not. I'm very familiar with Carol Dweck's work, and she is respected in the field as a careful methodologist. In many of her studies, mastery vs. entity (what she calls helpless here) orientation is a measured variable, and thus those studies are limited in their ability to infer causality. However, she has also done studies where they have experimentally manipulated orientation, and randomly assigned participants to condition, and these studies support the correlational research. But it's careful empirical research and not at all "anecdotal." (She's writing the current article for a lay audience, so she sprinkles it with a lot of examples just to make her point, but it's based on empirical work.)

Kreisler, I tried hard to champion the "hard work" side in the talent vs. hard work thread, but the talent side appears to have won out. I guess I'm still convinced that hard work is by far the more important ingredient.


Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica
[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#485390 - 11/30/07 03:01 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,896
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Betty Patnude  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,896
Puyallup, Washington
Kreisler,

Thank you for the link to "The Secret of Raising Smart Kids".

#485391 - 11/30/07 03:22 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keyboardklutz  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
I checked out some of Carol Dweck's writings. Here is a quote from an interview:
Quote
Finally, teachers can help students focus on and value learning. Too many students are hung up on grades and on proving their worth through grades. Grades are important, but learning is more important.
Tell that to the schools I've taught in. Learning was kicked out as league tables came in.

You and I, Monica, are on either side of a great divide. I have watched for decades as each new 'paradigm', 'theory', 'model', was foisted on classroom teachers - each one leaving practitioners more and more disempowered in its wake. Have you ever heard of Paul Hirst? He was the biggest thinker in the setting up of our post-war education system. I have sat in a seminar where he totally recanted his theories. Theories that have blighted millions of children's lives. 'My new theory...' he began.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#485392 - 11/30/07 03:23 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member
theJourney  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
Banned
there you go again, Kreisler!

Many thanks for this excellent article reference.

#485393 - 11/30/07 03:32 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member
theJourney  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
Banned
Quote
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Tell that to the schools I've taught in. Learning was kicked out as league tables came in.

You and I, Monica, are on either side of a great divide. I have watched for decades as each new 'paradigm', 'theory', 'model', was foisted on classroom teachers - each one leaving practitioners more and more disempowered in its wake. Have you ever heard of Paul Hirst? He was the biggest thinker in the setting up of our post-war education system. I have sat in a seminar where he totally recanted his theories. Theories that have blighted millions of children's lives. 'My new theory...' he began. [/QB]
No one would argue that public education has been mis-managed, particularly in parallel and irresponsible 180 degree swings witnessed in the UK, The Netherlands, the United States and countless other "advanced" nations. However, that does not seem to me to be a valid reason to reject research results.

In marketing, some of the most difficult segmentation exercises are on consumer attitudes. In the social sciences I can understand the difficulty of attaching conclusions based on "mind sets", much less designing solid educational policies on these. Nevertheless, I found the article compelling and very usable in terms of designing National educational programs, corporate human resource management policies and support for aspiring performing pianists.

#485394 - 11/30/07 03:40 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keyboardklutz  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Well I've read page two - The better results for 'those who feel effort is more important' goes without saying in, as I have said, a system that rewards effort over imagination.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#485395 - 11/30/07 03:42 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,355
argerichfan Offline
9000 Post Club Member
argerichfan  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,355
Pacific Northwest, US.
Quote
Originally posted by Monica K.:
I tried hard to champion the "hard work" side in the talent vs. hard work thread, but the talent side appears to have won out. I guess I'm still convinced that hard work is by far the more important ingredient.
I never said "hard work" wasn't important, just that I felt the "talent side" was being given short shift.

On the other thread I suggested 50-50. Might that bring us a bit closer? wink


Jason
#485396 - 11/30/07 04:05 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,645
U S A P T Offline
1000 Post Club Member
U S A P T  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,645
An Indiana University
Could it be that innate talent(s) steer one towards whatever avocation that makes the unavoidable required work more fulfilling and less like "work?"


Full-Time Music/Entrepreneurship Major: (Why not compose music AND businesses?)
Former Piano Industry Professional
************
Steinway M
Roland Atelier AT90R
************
All Posts are Snarky Unless Otherwise Noted
************
#485397 - 11/30/07 04:07 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keyboardklutz  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Or steers you AWAY altogether?


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#485398 - 11/30/07 04:13 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keyboardklutz  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
In fact, would anyone like to guess how many times the word imagination appears in this 5 page net-article?


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#485399 - 11/30/07 04:31 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
bitWrangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member
bitWrangler  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
Central TX
The problem with statements such as what started this thread I think is two fold.

Firstly, the statement itself is so vague as to nearly be meaningless. What is the quantitative measure for "talent"? I think everyone will agree that generally, if you practice something, you will get better. So you have people with different levels of talent that will allow them to improve at different rates. So lets say that you are going to try to measure this. You establish a baseline ability (B), and then you measure "improvement" by practice as the rate in which a person improves (V). So a more "talented" person will likely have a higher B and a higher V. Lets say a "less talented" person starts at B/2 and their ability to improve for a given amount of practice is V/2. It follows that if the lesser talent practices 5x the amount of the more talented person, that it is very possible for them to catch and surpass the "more talented" person. I understand this is a gross simplification, but I don't see where there is any real argument here? There will always be outliers of course. Seems to me that this only really becomes an issue if you speak of "potential".

Secondly, people have made mention of "success", and again, this is a very vague measure. Successfulness doesn't necessarily relate to ability, so exactly what are we measuring here?

#485400 - 11/30/07 04:53 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 278
Glaswegian Offline
Full Member
Glaswegian  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 278
Glasgow, Scotland
Labelling Talent and Improvement as variables and then plugging them in to a simple linear euqation model to calculate who is best simply doesn't wash.

Firstly these things aren't mathematically equation variables and can't be easily meaused, and even if they could the relationship certainly wouldn't be linear.

Genius, talent, intelligence et al. - sometimes an individual just "knows" or just "can" and other individuals just "don't get it" or "can't", and no amount of work/practice will ever change that.

#485401 - 11/30/07 04:58 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keyboardklutz  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Wow! You wait ages for a scientist then two come along at once! Thanks guys (girls?).


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#485402 - 11/30/07 05:50 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
bitWrangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member
bitWrangler  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
Central TX
Quote
Originally posted by Glaswegian:
Labelling Talent and Improvement as variables and then plugging them in to a simple linear euqation model to calculate who is best simply doesn't wash.

Firstly these things aren't mathematically equation variables and can't be easily meaused, and even if they could the relationship certainly wouldn't be linear.

Genius, talent, intelligence et al. - sometimes an individual just "knows" or just "can" and other individuals just "don't get it" or "can't", and no amount of work/practice will ever change that.
Actually the equations were to illustrate a point, not to represent reality. Obviously peoples abilities don't improve at a linear rate, but you can find a best fit line over a reasonable period of time to create some general observations. Plus I stated that there are always outliers, those that are "exceptional" and those on the opposite end of the spectrum. Even then you can plot a line that has either an extremely steep slope or extremely flat.

But anyway, my point was simply that as a general rule, hard work _can_ (not necessarily will) equalize performance assuming the "more talented" party is not working at a high enough rate to keep the "less talented" person from surpassing them. And that this seemed pretty evident and obvious.

#485403 - 11/30/07 05:53 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
bitWrangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member
bitWrangler  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
Central TX
Quote
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Wow! You wait ages for a scientist then two come along at once! Thanks guys (girls?).
If you're referring to me:

Young persons response: I'm not a scientist, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Old fogey response: I'm not a scientist, but I do play one on tv.

#485404 - 11/30/07 06:06 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 278
Glaswegian Offline
Full Member
Glaswegian  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 278
Glasgow, Scotland
"As a general rule, hard work can equalise performance".

This statemenet is simply not true. Hard work most certainly can and does improve ability but in absolutely no way can you try to infer or conclude that if everyone does a different amount of work to compensate for different levels of starting ability that everyone will end up the same. That is clearly nonsense.

I think a more accurate general rule would be that the harder you work the better you will get.

#485405 - 11/30/07 06:07 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,645
Akira Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Akira  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,645
Los Angeles, CA
When one looks at world-class pianists, most people would say they're talented. If these piansts and taken one month of lessons, then never played again, they would likely not be up on stage.

I think talent is only 'potential talent,' until it is brought out, developed, nurtured and allowed to grow. How much of this potential is eventually realized is dependent upon training, time, persistence and hard work.

I believe its a term used for people who are on the extreme end of the learning curve spectrum. They are able see what others do not and do what others can not and do both with far greater speed and efficiency than the rest of us. Personally, I think their brains are just wired differently than the average Joe.

Those that recognize they have this gift have a choice. They can either use it to their advantage or choose to waste it. They either recognize they can if they want to, or choose not to want to.

The latter is sad.

I have no doubt that hard work will get you much further than a mediocre effort. All other things being equal, can hard work alone and no talent produce the same results as talent (you're not born with) combined with hard work? Unfortunately, I don't think it can.

I wish I were talented, but I'm not. Hard work will just have to do.

#485406 - 11/30/07 06:24 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,285
Eternal Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Eternal  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,285
Posts: 80,372
"If you knew how much work went into it, you wouldn't call it genius." - Michelangelo

#485407 - 11/30/07 06:33 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
bitWrangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member
bitWrangler  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
Central TX
Quote
Originally posted by Glaswegian:
"As a general rule, hard work can equalise performance".

This statemenet is simply not true. Hard work most certainly can and does improve ability but in absolutely no way can you try to infer or conclude that if everyone does a different amount of work to compensate for different levels of starting ability that everyone will end up the same. That is clearly nonsense.

I think a more accurate general rule would be that the harder you work the better you will get.
How is that "clearly nonsense"? A general rule never implies "everyone". It simply means that if you take some reasonable sampling of individuals, that you would expect to see the results stated following some statistical distribution (e.g. a bell curve). Of course this can vary significantly by population chosen and ability being measured (5'8" folks will generally never be able to dunk a basketball as well as a population of 6'8" folks no matter how hard they practice/train, however their ability to make free throws will show different results)

#485408 - 11/30/07 06:47 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 278
Glaswegian Offline
Full Member
Glaswegian  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 278
Glasgow, Scotland
It is clearly nonsense because in general, people will improve if they work hard, but in general people will ABSOLUTELY NOT converge to a similar level of ability.

As a Statistics graduate, I know all about sample populations and bell curves. Indeed, if I carefully select the right sample I can "prove" that storks bring babies!!

You unpick your own argument by refering to these very bell curves. If you have a group fo people with a similar level of ability and then they all put in the same level of hard work, you would expect to see differing levels of ability at the other end i.e. a bell curve, or normal distribution of results.

The same result would occur if you had a group of varying levels of ability and they put in varying levels of hard work. With a large enough sample size, you would again expect to see a normal distribution of ability at the end of the experiment.

Your "general rule" would result is a very long flat line section in the centre where most people's ability to perform has equalised.

#485409 - 11/30/07 07:06 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
bitWrangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member
bitWrangler  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
Central TX
Quote
Originally posted by Glaswegian:
It is clearly nonsense because in general, people will improve if they work hard, but in general people will ABSOLUTELY NOT converge to a similar level of ability.
Never said that there would be convergence, you're twisting my original point. It was about ones ability to overcome a lack of "talent" by hard work, and how this can allow someone of lesser talent to overcome/match someone of greater talent if the person of lesser talent works at a rate that is sufficiently more than the person of greater talent. AGAIN, there will ALWAYS be exceptions, but it is certainly possible and in a great many number of cases.


As a Statistics graduate, I know all about sample populations and bell curves. Indeed, if I carefully select the right sample I can "prove" that storks bring babies!!


Lies, damn lies ....


You unpick your own argument by refering to these very bell curves. If you have a group fo people with a similar level of ability and then they all put in the same level of hard work, you would expect to see differing levels of ability at the other end i.e. a bell curve, or normal distribution of results.


All you've proved is that they have differing levels of what, in this thread, is called talent. Different members of your population improve at a higher rate given the same amount of work resulting in your bell curve.


The same result would occur if you had a group of varying levels of ability and they put in varying levels of hard work. With a large enough sample size, you would again expect to see a normal distribution of ability at the end of the experiment.

Your "general rule" would result is a very long flat line section in the centre where most people's ability to perform has equalised.


But we're not discussing random abilities and random levels of work. We're talking specifically about a specific group ("talented") putting in a bound qty of work (less than) another specific group ("less talented") and seeing if and when the ability lines of the two groups intersect (at what pct does the less talented group have to work harder than the more talented to allow for the line to intersect in some reasonable time frame).

But beyond all the mumbo jumbo, yes, it certainly is _possible_ for one of "lesser" talent to surpass those of "greater" talent by simply working harder than those who have greater talent. That's been the point all along and so far I don't think anyone disagrees (other than to bring up outliers). Do we agree on this?

#485410 - 11/30/07 07:19 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 278
Glaswegian Offline
Full Member
Glaswegian  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 278
Glasgow, Scotland
I wasn't trying to twist your original point. I was just interpretating what you wrote and disagreeing with it. The beauty of the written word - the same words mean different things to different people!!

Anyways, it's perfectly possible that someone who regarded as being less talented than another individual can, woth hard work end up a much more able performer. This is true in all walks of life, not just piano.

What I would still disagree with is that you can somehow put this in to an equation and most peole who are less talented and who work harder than more talented people can, as a rule catch up.

The reason I diagree with this general rule is that innate ability, talent or whatever you want to call it is so difficult to quantify in the first place, and there are so many other variables to take in to account that simply more hard work is not enough to bridge such a gap as a general rule.

#485411 - 11/30/07 07:26 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
bitWrangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member
bitWrangler  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
Central TX
Quote
Originally posted by Glaswegian:
I wasn't trying to twist your original point. I was just interpretating what you wrote and disagreeing with it. The beauty of the written word - the same words mean different things to different people!!

Anyways, it's perfectly possible that someone who regarded as being less talented than another individual can, woth hard work end up a much more able performer. This is true in all walks of life, not just piano.

What I would still disagree with is that you can somehow put this in to an equation and most peole who are less talented and who work harder than more talented people can, as a rule catch up.

The reason I diagree with this general rule is that innate ability, talent or whatever you want to call it is so difficult to quantify in the first place, and there are so many other variables to take in to account that simply more hard work is not enough to bridge such a gap as a general rule.
Ah yes, we generally wink agree then (even if it's to agree to disagree on some points).

#485412 - 11/30/07 07:29 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 278
Glaswegian Offline
Full Member
Glaswegian  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 278
Glasgow, Scotland
I'll tell you what would be interesting - to gather 2 groups of pianists that fall in to these 2 categories and give it a whirl. That would be fun.

Who knows, I might learn something!!

#485413 - 11/30/07 07:34 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
bitWrangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member
bitWrangler  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
Central TX
Quote
Originally posted by Glaswegian:
I'll tell you what would be interesting - to gather 2 groups of pianists that fall in to these 2 categories and give it a whirl. That would be fun.

Who knows, I might learn something!!
Ahh, but that would lead to endless discourse on how to place them in the proper bins laugh

#485414 - 11/30/07 07:37 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,600
Opus_Maximus Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Opus_Maximus  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,600
IMO, the truest statement regarding this topic :

“Neither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius.”
-Mozart

#485415 - 11/30/07 07:41 PM Re: Training beats Talent  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 148
hyonchingonchon Offline
Full Member
hyonchingonchon  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 148
Everyone who can work for something has talent.


You can take a noob and train him all day but that'll just make him a trained noob...
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Yamaha N1 - is it still a good buy?
by Loga. 05/29/17 04:40 AM
Piano Placement
by RickH. 05/28/17 09:28 PM
Argerich and Babayan in Cleveland
by MikeN. 05/28/17 05:12 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Report Problems With New Forums
Report Problems with New Forums Here!
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics179,943
Posts2,630,726
Members87,916
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0