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Re: In which direction is classical music going in the future? #474503
10/14/03 10:57 AM
10/14/03 10:57 AM
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dude your starting to sound crazy and are losing credibility. chopin thought every composer sucked including himself, the only composers he admired was bach and mozart. Liszt was also extremely humble of his compositions, he always put them down. the fact is if they really were that bad his compositions would not have lived on for years and years. Many great pianists have composed and their works are rarely heard, anton rubinstein, thalberg, clara shumann, gottschalks, godowsky, Padereski, ect. I think that shows that just because Liszt was a great pianist doesn't mean his compositions will live and just because they are very pianistic doesn't mean that also because all of the above composers wrote with the pianist in mind. Also Liszt invented the symphonic poem which has nothing to do with the piano. in fact Chopin was the true pusher of the keyboard because that is all he composed for. It would be better of you to say we all play Chopin because we like playing fast scales and arpeggios.

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Re: In which direction is classical music going in the future? #474504
10/14/03 11:03 AM
10/14/03 11:03 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by Gflat:
Interesting thread diverging between is Jimmy Hendrix as valid as Liszt and the future of 'classical' music.

I've had a similar conversation before that ended with the self labelled 'intellectuals' effectively pronouncing that 'classical' music is better.

Good to see that they're are others who also feel that not to be the case.

It is indeed this snobbery that actually hinders the acceptance of 'classic' music.

Hans I'll take you full on here.

Go and listen to the Beatles ( all of it) and then go and spend a year or two analysing that music . Get Revolution in the Head to help you if you don't want to spend too long and read it cover to cover. Then use your ears again

Not only are there beautifully simplistic things but often complicated unusual progressions all hidden beneath lyrics that mean something to people from the recent past and now STILL.

Lennon MCartney also have one thing that ensures their memory and greatness ........phenomenally consistantly high standards.

There are more people around who would value that music than Schuberts songs or Liszt's back catalogue.

Personally, and I know you will laugh, I think Lennon/Mac leave most of the classical composers in their wake, by some distance too. Just my opinion

I'd also like to bring up an opinion about Liszt. the pianist or the composer ?

I'll go out on a limb here - in real comparative terms apart from the B minor sonata and a handful of works 80% of his work is a virtuosic finger fest.

I'm surprise at Liszts standing actually - as a composer sitting up with the Bach's Mozarts Beethovens Debussy and Chopins he is not on even the third rank.

I understand this is a forum for pianists of which I am one but musically he is imo immensely overated. Pianistically, sure a fantastic performer but to take the modern anology I'd compare him with Stevie Vai, Joe Satriani and Malmsteen on guitars. They too are mind blowing players, performers who have moved the instrument and the player technically forward but more importantly musically imo bereft.

Hendrix on the other hand, one of your pet favs, although not as technically gifted as those is musically a God in comparison , there's hardly a chord played by him that is not musically strong and therefore of a higher musical value imo

I think it is good we are comparing all 'musics' it will open up everybody for judgement.

It is interesting once you get outside of the 'classical' music establishment just how unimportant 'the greats' are.

Like you though I love them but they sure are not 'better' just different.

Sorry for the confrontational aspect but it does **** me off hearing people go on and on about this subject with a thousand words when you just have to look around you to get the reality of the situation .

So what if you do not like this or that (me with Liszt!) fact is that people now can show what they like and dislike . Rap jazz shows atonal Webern Varese Bach Lennon it's all valid - trying to make a case for one being vastly superior to the other is a foolish exercise and no amount of intellectualising can make a Rapper like Mozart

Go on flay me ........I've got all year
My mother used to say people don't understand Liszt because the music is way to high for them laugh laugh . I guess you'll call this snobbery laugh .

I think you are entirely out of line in analyzing what I wrote. I specifically indicated and repeated myself in saying that I wasn't saying classical was better then modern. I specifically responded to the absurd notion that Jimi Hendrix has the same level of virtuosity as Liszt. I have listened to a few Jimi Hendrix's pieces and I liked them pretty much, but to try to compare the technical requirements of what he has played with what it requires to master all of Liszt's output is simply foolish.

I have also specifically never said the Beatles music is sub-standard to that of classical music--read my posts, so your line of argument is entirely a fabrication. I specifically argued that the Beatles rock-n-roll or whatever you wish to call it, does not belong to the classical genre. I believed BDB mentioned that he has heard a string quartet play Beatles. Certainly, anyone can try to classicalize music from any genre and the reverse is true, but the original Beatles as they played and sang is not classical music.

What's the matter with you people, READ my posts in their entirety and you'll see I haven't said anything remotely indicating that the Beatles in substandard to Classical music. Better go to the Opto and get those pair of glasses checked laugh - I don't wear any :p .

Re: In which direction is classical music going in the future? #474505
10/14/03 12:00 PM
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I'm not quite getting where you got the idea that Jimi Hendrix's music is somehow easy to play... trust me, I used to play guitar, and quite well actually, but Hendrix's is some of the most demanding guitar music ever. For a guitarist to master all of Hendrix's output would take just as much skill as a pianist mastering all of Liszt's output, actually probably more so, as he'd have to transcribe most of it by ear. It's far from "foolish" to try to compare the two.

Re: In which direction is classical music going in the future? #474506
10/14/03 12:12 PM
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Comparisons in music are ultimately futile. There are some things which are not competitive, and music is one. I had just picked Jimi Hendrix as a name of someone who was undoubtedly a great player on his instrument and an idol that most people would recognize, just like Liszt. Frankly, I couldn't listen to much of Jimi Hendrix' music without getting a headache, just as I couldn't listen to much Liszt without getting bored out of my skull. Hanz may disagree with that assessment of Hendrix' playing, but ultimately it boils down to a comparison of opinions.

So are opinions of what constitutes modern classical music, to use an oxymoron. There's no way that Hanz' definition could make the distinctions he wants to make. I'm sure Beethoven or Liszt would have recognized themselves more in Fats Waller, Elvis Presley, or the Beatles than in Elliot Carter or John Adams. Carter and Adams would have represented the fusty old music academics of the time, the ones who are now more famous for the composers they refused to let into their schools than for anything they composed, although I'm sure that both Carter and Adams are wise enough that they wouldn't refuse talented students no matter what their genre.


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Re: In which direction is classical music going in the future? #474507
10/14/03 12:54 PM
10/14/03 12:54 PM
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I'd even entertain the idea that atonality was both. A logical next step and misguided. smile

Quote
Originally posted by CrashTest:
Rick, I think the whole atonal idea was not a misguided effort, but a logical next step in musical progression when one examines what came before it and other cultural circumstances.


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Re: In which direction is classical music going in the future? #474508
10/14/03 01:28 PM
10/14/03 01:28 PM
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Crashtest:

I think you've defended yourself well in this thread - and thanks for defending Liszt! smile - here is my opinion on the subject:

Every great composer, IMO, has accepted the possibility of failure before putting pen to paper. (Much like Miyamoto Musashi accepting death before a duel.) You must accept the fact that you can commit your life to composition, and be left with nothing in the end, accept a confirmation of your own mediocrity. This will free the composer from all stylistic constraints, e.g. :

"Didn't Berg open one of his pieces with parallel fourths 90 years ago?" Am I being unoriginal?" eek


"See?! The Cliffs of Insanity!"
Re: In which direction is classical music going in the future? #474509
10/14/03 03:38 PM
10/14/03 03:38 PM
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We are at a very interesting point in history right now. History does tend to go in cycles sometimes, but never has a society and world like this existed. In the past, people only listened to music that was new- for example, an old Beethoven work was most likely not heard too much in his time, but his new works were. We live in a time with access to everything from anytime, with great ease.

Are we post modernists? (Surely not post-minimalists!) I do not know how we can be more modern than the modernists, or more classical than the classicists, so we have to create something new, never before heard or seen. I think that is where we are going, where no historical trend can predict its path.

Re: In which direction is classical music going in the future? #474510
10/14/03 09:17 PM
10/14/03 09:17 PM
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Originally posted by Gflat:
So what is your teacher like then ?
Instead of just saying 'Thank goodness you aren't my student', you've chosen to attack my teacher instead. How professional, after 40 years.

Can my teacher play Liszt and Rachmaninov blindfolded? I don't know; I suppose he could. Not that I've asked him to do it before, neither has he bothered to demonstrate it to me. Do your students ask you to do that?

Truth be told, my teacher doesn't like Liszt's music too much either. But when I brought him things like Au Lac de Wallenstadt and Au bord d'une source, he did admit that it was good music. He didn't simply trash it as crap. He has a good amount of respect for the Sonata as well. I guess this level of open-mindedness and objectivity is what I like about my teacher.

If you've been teaching 40 years, and you can't find any substance in Liszt's music, either 1. You're brain-dead, or 2. You haven't heard enough of his music, in which case I wonder if all you've been teaching for the last 40 years is how to play Rachmaninov blindfolded.

Sorry for going off-topic. Hope this ends here.

Re: In which direction is classical music going in the future? #474511
10/15/03 09:44 AM
10/15/03 09:44 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by Gflat:
Quote
Originally posted by CrashTest:
[b] g flat, I think you are perhaps not seeing Liszt with the correct perspective. He did compose virtuosic works- no one denies that. He also composed a plethora of other works that have substantially affected music ever since, and are much deeper than simply flying fingers. The romantic image of Liszt the virtuoso is another stereotype that is not entirely true and must be discarded, since he was a multi-faceted musician who can indeed stand in close proximity to those composers you mentioned.
Why must the romantic image of Liszt be discarded ?

Upon his own admission for 75% of his life he was a 'pop idol' that's all.

Upon realising this he then made a very serious attempt to become something he thought was more a great composer and although the sonata is a shining beacon of his solitary success in that field overall to be frank he cannot hold a candle to the much bigger boys.

I'm afraid the people that think Liszt is up their with the great composers are ALL pianists.

His very very late works show maybe what he could have done in the field of comopsition but I doubt it. His experimentation with sound at the very end is commendable but it still did not amount to 'great music' in any recognizable form imo

Chopin's compositional opinion is worth hearing and he thought Liszt had no substance whatever

Right on the money and a good enough opinion for me to be honest.

Look I play and teach the piano, for forty years I know where the serious pianists amongst you are coming from on this but frankly Liszt as a composer is a very mediocre proposition in my humble opinion [/b]
Be careful when taking the opinion of other composers at the time as objective. Remember Liszt and Chopin, while they were friends to a point, they were certainly rivals. Chopin also though thet Schuman's Fantasy?? (it actuall has a more German name--one of you might wish to fill-in the right name) was not music at all. In fact he didn't have any regard for any of Schuman's music. I believe that for Chopin, the only great composers, would have been Bach and Mozart--sure, excellent choices.

Chopin's comments cannot be taken as objective, there is simply too much evidence to suggest that he was bias or worst envious.

Re: In which direction is classical music going in the future? #474512
10/15/03 09:48 AM
10/15/03 09:48 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by Brendan:
Quote
Originally posted by mrenaud:
[b]Should there some day be an audience that is willing to listen and to be open to sounds which are unfamiliar to them, I'll be glad to take them seriously. Unless they do (and right now they don't, most of them at least), I couldn't care less whether or not they like my music.
I'll respond to that display of attitude with this excerpt from John Corigliano's writings, who says it best:

"I don't understand composers with what I call an eternity complex, people who ignore today's audiences and think of themselves as misunderstood prophets whose masterpieces will be seen as such in a century or so. That, I think, reveals a basic contempt for audiences and obvious arrogance in the composer. The pose of the misunderstood artist has been fashionable for quite a while, and now it is tiresome and old-fashioned...I think it is the job of every composer to reach out to his audience with all means at his disposal. Communication should always be a primary goal."

Every year, CCM hosts a new music festival that attracts composers such as Rzewski, Bright Sheng, Kernis, Louis Andriessen among others. Their attitudes are (for the most part) professional because they let their music speak for itself. On the other hand, the conduct of some of the students is horrid. One composer in particular wanted to give a thirty-minute lecture on his five minute etude. When he was told this was impossible, he threw a fit and had his piece withdrawn. Personally, I was pleased because it meant that I didn't have to practice that unpianistic, pseudo-intellectual piece of trash anymore. [/b]

Re: In which direction is classical music going in the future? #474513
10/15/03 09:52 AM
10/15/03 09:52 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by tremendousOt:
.......It's far from "foolish" to try to compare the two.
Indeed, but I am not the one to make the original assessment that Jimi Hendrix's music is just as difficult as Liszt. I've heard many guitarists play Hendrix's line very well and while I know nothing about the guitar, I have found that those who are well skilled in playing this instrument, to be capable of playing his melodies. Some of the classical acoustic guitarists also play intricate melodies, which I dare say sound even more difficult than Jimi Hendrix's. I know Jimi Hendrix is a great legend, but a lot of the posts here are hyping him up to supernatural levels of ability, which I believe is doing a great dis-service to the guy.

Re: In which direction is classical music going in the future? #474514
10/15/03 10:00 AM
10/15/03 10:00 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by BDB:
Comparisons in music are ultimately futile. There are some things which are not competitive, and music is one. I had just picked Jimi Hendrix as a name of someone who was undoubtedly a great player on his instrument and an idol that most people would recognize, just like Liszt. Frankly, I couldn't listen to much of Jimi Hendrix' music without getting a headache, just as I couldn't listen to much Liszt without getting bored out of my skull. Hanz may disagree with that assessment of Hendrix' playing, but ultimately it boils down to a comparison of opinions.

So are opinions of what constitutes modern classical music, to use an oxymoron. There's no way that Hanz' definition could make the distinctions he wants to make. I'm sure Beethoven or Liszt would have recognized themselves more in Fats Waller, Elvis Presley, or the Beatles than in Elliot Carter or John Adams. Carter and Adams would have represented the fusty old music academics of the time, the ones who are now more famous for the composers they refused to let into their schools than for anything they composed, although I'm sure that both Carter and Adams are wise enough that they wouldn't refuse talented students no matter what their genre.
----------

The opinions are not mine, actually. Today, it is public opinion that there is a difference between classical music and rock-n-roll (or Beatles). They belong to completely different genres and the definitions are not mine. It is YOUR OPINION that any music can be considered as classical, and it is public opinion that this is not so.

Classical music has a different style and form or structure, characteristic of the time from which the music originated. These definitions are not mine. Your opinion is in the minority, frankly. And you may ask, what do I have to offer as proof-- all the dictionaries, musical encycliapedias, texts and of course, the music itself. When they site examples of classical music, they don't gave the Beatles or Jimi Hendrix music, but Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn...etc. Perhaps, you the enlightened one, wish to say that all of these references are wrong and that you are right.

You simply have a radical opinion and you are trying to invent ways to justify it. No major musical journal or reference text has ever, to my knowledge, made such an absurd proclamation. You must have been discussing this with some of your friends or dreamt it, and somehow feels it is truely a great and original thought worthy of public hearing. However, original it is, it is absurd! It is like saying that milk is has the potential to be peanut butter, or chicken has the potential to be fish--I hope these examples, gave you the idea of how your argument sound to my ears.

Re: In which direction is classical music going in the future? #474515
10/15/03 10:20 AM
10/15/03 10:20 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by eflat:
Quote
Originally posted by Brendan:
[b]
Quote
Originally posted by mrenaud:
[b]Should there some day be an audience that is willing to listen and to be open to sounds which are unfamiliar to them, I'll be glad to take them seriously. Unless they do (and right now they don't, most of them at least), I couldn't care less whether or not they like my music.
I'll respond to that display of attitude with this excerpt from John Corigliano's writings, who says it best:

"I don't understand composers with what I call an eternity complex, people who ignore today's audiences and think of themselves as misunderstood prophets whose masterpieces will be seen as such in a century or so. That, I think, reveals a basic contempt for audiences and obvious arrogance in the composer. The pose of the misunderstood artist has been fashionable for quite a while, and now it is tiresome and old-fashioned...I think it is the job of every composer to reach out to his audience with all means at his disposal. Communication should always be a primary goal."

Every year, CCM hosts a new music festival that attracts composers such as Rzewski, Bright Sheng, Kernis, Louis Andriessen among others. Their attitudes are (for the most part) professional because they let their music speak for itself. On the other hand, the conduct of some of the students is horrid. One composer in particular wanted to give a thirty-minute lecture on his five minute etude. When he was told this was impossible, he threw a fit and had his piece withdrawn. Personally, I was pleased because it meant that I didn't have to practice that unpianistic, pseudo-intellectual piece of trash anymore. [/b]
[/b]
I think that all art should be meaningful to the creater of that art. There should never be a question...."Will they like it". No, the question is always...."Do you (the artist) like it, and does it express what you wanted to say. When I create a work, I create it to express my feelings whatever they may be at the time. I cannot think of the audiance, otherwise my work suffuers. I think that this is true in all (real) art.

Re: In which direction is classical music going in the future? #474516
10/15/03 11:05 AM
10/15/03 11:05 AM
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Whatever Hanz, I still think you're missing the point, maybe you should refrain from judging Hendrix or any other music that you obviously know little about. If you seriously want to give a listen to Hendrix I suggest you go out and grab his Woodstock video or the 2 cd set, then maybe you'll have a more informed opinion.

Re: In which direction is classical music going in the future? #474517
10/15/03 11:12 AM
10/15/03 11:12 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by tremendousOt:
Whatever Hanz, I still think you're missing the point, maybe you should refrain from judging Hendrix or any other music that you obviously know little about. If you seriously want to give a listen to Hendrix I suggest you go out and grab his Woodstock video or the 2 cd set, then maybe you'll have a more informed opinion.
Which point, specifically, am I missing? Perhaps, they should play jimi Hendrix as an example of classical music in those multimedia encyclopedias, right? eek

Re: In which direction is classical music going in the future? #474518
10/15/03 11:18 AM
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Indeed, but I am not the one to make the original assessment that Jimi Hendrix's music is just as difficult as Liszt. I've heard many guitarists play Hendrix's line very well and while I know nothing about the guitar, I have found that those who are well skilled in playing this instrument, to be capable of playing his melodies. Some of the classical acoustic guitarists also play intricate melodies, which I dare say sound even more difficult than Jimi Hendrix's. I know Jimi Hendrix is a great legend, but a lot of the posts here are hyping him up to supernatural levels of ability, which I believe is doing a great dis-service to the guy.
In fact, you are the one who started talking about Hendrix' music. I only brought up his virtuosity. If you speak of his melodies, that's an entirely different thing. If you compare his playing to classical guitarists, you haven't even recognized that he was playing an entirely different instrument than classical guitarists. Sure, he was no Segovia. That doesn't mean that Segovia could have played anything like Hendrix. They didn't play the same instruments.

Quote
The opinions are not mine, actually. Today, it is public opinion that there is a difference between classical music and rock-n-roll (or Beatles). They belong to completely different genres and the definitions are not mine. It is YOUR OPINION that any music can be considered as classical, and it is public opinion that this is not so.

Classical music has a different style and form or structure, characteristic of the time from which the music originated. These definitions are not mine. Your opinion is in the minority, frankly. And you may ask, what do I have to offer as proof-- all the dictionaries, musical encycliapedias, texts and of course, the music itself. When they site examples of classical music, they don't gave the Beatles or Jimi Hendrix music, but Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn...etc. Perhaps, you the enlightened one, wish to say that all of these references are wrong and that you are right.

You simply have a radical opinion and you are trying to invent ways to justify it. No major musical journal or reference text has ever, to my knowledge, made such an absurd proclamation. You must have been discussing this with some of your friends or dreamt it, and somehow feels it is truely a great and original thought worthy of public hearing. However, original it is, it is absurd! It is like saying that milk is has the potential to be peanut butter, or chicken has the potential to be fish--I hope these examples, gave you the idea of how your argument sound to my ears.
But the point of the topic is to discuss the future of classical music. If I were to use your definition as you are using it now, then there is an answer: there is none! There hasn't been any written since 1900, and nobody can write any more. That's perhaps a legitimate viewpoint, although it doesn't explain what happened to music on Dec. 31, 1899 to make such a difference. But it makes this discussion pointless.

As for your claim that classical music has a different style and form or structure, characteristic of the time from which the music originated, that all depends on what you think style, form, or structure is. If you can't see similarities in the popular music of the past century with that of what you are calling classical music, that suggests a limitation in your musical knowledge. Those similarities were shown to me at my music classes at what is considered one of the best schools for musicology in the US. Consider what you said earlier:

Quote
Even the smallest child who is, I am sure, not as enlightened as you, would recognize the differences between the Beatles and any Mozart sonata you wish to choose.
If you asked the smallest child whether he or she could recognize the difference between Mozart's "Komm, o lieber Mai" and a Berg song, I bet he or she would find "Here, There, and Everywhere" to be more similar to the Mozart. You would have an even tougher job getting the child to recognize the difference between the melody of Elvis Presley's "Love Me Tender" and that of Stephen Foster's "Aura Lee."

There just isn't any way to distinguish any genre of today's music and give an objective measure of how "classical" it is. There is no objective definition of modern classical music.


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Re: In which direction is classical music going in the future? #474519
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oh come on man, your nuts. look if you want one big genre then why don't you just call everything music. you obviously are anti classification. and of course some of the composition techniques used in the classical period are carried over other periods, so of course there will be a connection between a mozart sonata and a beatles song. But please do this for me ask your teacher if you can learn a classical piece and then put a beatles piece in front of him or her. They will think your nuts and ignorant. but since ideas change and composition techniques change, and form changes we classify periods. That is why their are also overlapping of periods. Late beethoven could be considerd romantic and when he was old Liszt was young and Liszt is romantic. The ideas combine for a while during the early romantics such as shubert and weber and then by the time we are in 1830 we have a new approach to music. The same happend during the transfer from romantic to 20th century. so of course there will always be similarities in music but when the music differs enough we classify it.

Re: In which direction is classical music going in the future? #474520
10/15/03 12:52 PM
10/15/03 12:52 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31
USA
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tremendousOt Offline
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tremendousOt  Offline
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31
USA
Quote
Which point, specifically, am I missing? Perhaps, they should play jimi Hendrix as an example of classical music in those multimedia encyclopedias, right?
No, my point is entirely separate from the rest of this thread, and it's that you should just shut up unless you know what your talking about. **** , I didn't think it was that difficult to grasp.

Re: In which direction is classical music going in the future? #474521
10/15/03 01:03 PM
10/15/03 01:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,066
Renauda Offline
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Renauda  Offline
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Posts: 5,066
I think something is being left out here. Popular music often over time turns into folk music. Beethoven, Liszt, Bartok, Shostakovich and a host of other composers took folk melodies or fragments of folk melodies and rythmns and incorprated them into their music.
For all we know Beatles tunes will become folk melodies and perhaps new lyrics will be penned to them (not unlike Aura Lee and Love Me Tender). what furture composers do with those folk ideas will be anyone's guess.

One difference today as opposed to earlier times is recording technology. A Beatles tune is cast as a Beatles tune with an historical record to prove the fact. It was not the case in past: rythmns and melodies were passed down aurally- it was the classically trained composers who put them to paper in a form which was broadly understood and accepted at the time. Just look at the wanderings of Bartok and Kodaly from village to village in Hungary, Slovakia and Transylvannia.

As for Jimi Hendrix or any virtuoso pop/folk musician- the style speaks more for the individual musician's improvisational abilities than the music itself. Jimi played Little Red Rooster different from the Rolling Stones who played it differently from Howlin' Wolf who in turn played it differently from Willie Dixon. Today, the same tune played by Martin Simpson would have his own particular virtuosity stamped on it. Just think of how many cover versions are there of Robert Johnson's "Walkin' Blues"? I can think of dozens and not all are Blues- some are Jazz and others are Bluegrass and Rock. I'm sure that there's even counrty version somewhere. Jimi changed the way the electric guitar was played in the same way that Liszt changed the way the piano was played in his time. Had Jimi lived longer perhaps he would have moved into Jazz and beyond. Clearly he knew his instrument- the electric guitar- as well as anyone else at the time. We simply don't know where he would have taken it next.


"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae
Re: In which direction is classical music going in the future? #474522
10/15/03 04:00 PM
10/15/03 04:00 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 197
BC, Canada
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Hanz Offline
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Hanz  Offline
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 197
BC, Canada
Quote
Originally posted by tremendousOt:
Quote
Which point, specifically, am I missing? Perhaps, they should play jimi Hendrix as an example of classical music in those multimedia encyclopedias, right?
No, my point is entirely separate from the rest of this thread, and it's that you should just shut up unless you know what your talking about. **** , I didn't think it was that difficult to grasp.
So, because I have a different view point than yours you going to use 4 letter swear words? I see that I incorrectly assumed that you were civilized person. I have no intention of bowing myself down to your level of conversing,.

Snap_apple, has it correct, one cannot say that all music is classical. Even if there are similarities between genres of music, this no reason to say they are the same.

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