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Over the years I've discovered that is sometimes easier to get an idea of how a piece should sound on the piano by listening to a composers non-piano works. In many cases, the composer has incorporated the same idioms into his piano music that he uses in his orchestral or chamber works.

After listening how the composer phrases something, or uses a particular texture against another, I try to bring that out in his piano work.

A good example is Bach. When I play his English or French Suites, I incorporate some of the same phrasing found in his concertos or orchestral suites. The same with Haydn and his piano sonatas. I find a lot of similarity between his string quartets and the sonatas. With CPE Bach, who is new to me, I find his keyboard sonatas to be similar to his symphonies. In Beethoven, especially his later sonatas, I hear a lot of similarities between his piano concertos and his sonatas and string quartets.

Does anyone else do this, or I just crazy as usual?

John

I do find that thinking about how the composer might have scored a certain passage for orchestra/quartet/choir/... can help with interpretation.

It doesn't work so well for Chopin or Clementi though .

Best wishes,
Matthew

Some of it perhaps boils down laziness. Check out J C Bach's keyboard sonatas. He published 2 sets - op 5 and op 17. He made no concessions to the piano at all. It's just his regular opera style. Mozart learnt much from him.

CPE, on the other hand, would seem to be applying what he's learned through his idiomatic clavichord work. I don't know much of CPE's non-keyboard works though. One excitement - I just received Peter Wollny's Harvard PHD thesis on WF! That'll keep me busy this weekend.

John, I listened to your Mozart again last night. A real joy!

not crazy at all John.

one thing i enjoy about my occasional lessons is that i get to hear mr. teacher interpret the piece orchestrally (appropriate because the composer (s) I like writes for multiple instruments and voice.

John, you're not crazy. This is the sort of thing every musician should do, IMO.

For example, so many people state that if you don't know and understand Mozart's operas, you cannot fully know his works in other genres. I once thought this was rubbish. Then I got to know and love Mozart's operas, and I found out that they're soooo right! You realize that Mozart employs certain gestures and devices to depict certain affects, and then the rest of his works become operas in their own right.

John, I completely agree. Your fingers can create a mini-orchestra and they can vocalize as well.

It makes perfect sense. There are lots of passages where Beethoven will write piano music in four parts resembling a string quartet, or where Schubert's music will be very similar to his lieder. It makes sense to listen to the other music to understand the piano music.

I listen to a lot of orchestral music too, and I have no doubt it imparts variety and interest to my playing. However, in my case, the correlation is neither direct nor specific with regard to composers, pieces or instruments. Over time, a general imaginative effect gets into the unconscious, then finds its own way out during playing via increasing diversity of touch, accent and figuration. It is far from a deliberate or conscious process for me.

I spent 15 years of my youth playing oboe in fairly high standard youth orchestras. I often forget many pianists have never made music this way. Beethoven for me is an orchestral composer. I still remember my delight as a teenager in discovering Mozart had actually written music for the piano!

No, not crazy. Perhaps more dedicated than many pianists.

But...

Don't stop at listening to those other works: play them! There's a wealth of accompanying and chamber music out there: lieder, violin sonatas, trios... Then there's arrangements: Brahms wrote his own piano duet arrangements of his symphonies, and they're a joy to play; you can find all the Beethoven string quartets in piano duet arrangements. And you can practice your score-reading: learn to play Haydn string quartets and Mozart symphonies off the full orcehstral score...


A good perspective on Chopin's music is the operas of Bellini and Donizetti, especially the way they use ornamentation in some of the colaratura arias.

I use everything! Vocal, solo instrumental and orchestral...go for it!

BTW, that Arthur Pryor stuff for coloratura trombone is excellent...

Thanks for the other perspectives on this. I guess I'm not as daft as I thought.

Keyboard Klutz, I'm glad you still like the Mozart. I have to check out JC Bach when I get a chance. I have a few of his sonatas so they should make a good read.

Janus, I discovered Mozart's operas the same way, and I hear a lot of the same ideas in them as well.

Alexander, I've played plenty of orchestral transcriptions. I find that Beethoven's symphonies transcribed for piano are very insightful into his music. I'll have to check out the Brahms two piano works. I've also transcribed (on sight) two-piano works for single piano, like Mozart's piano concertos, and I've sight read through orchestral scores as well. It can be a bit tough when things get beyond the finger/hand range, but it's fun non-the-less.

I also love chamber music, and have accompanied small ensembles and trios. This music gave me goose bumps when everyone was in that symbiotic state as everything flowed together as one being. Right now I have the MMO series of Mozart's piano quartets. (Heaven!)

Thanks Apple for your thoughts on this. My teacher did this for me as well.

Loki, I noticed that Schubert's piano sonatas are like his symphonies. I have some piano transcriptions of his symphonies, and the textures are very similar.

Interesting, Ted. I've never thought of it this way, but I can see where you're coming from. You're not necessarily copying a particular composer, but employing the symphonic effects right at the piano. Hmmm. That gives me some ideas.

John

I have never listened to the Schubert symphonies, so I can't make that connection yet. When I wrote that, I was thinking more about his Impromptus.

Well, once you've heard the unfinished you may feel like throwing your Impromptus in the bin.