Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Can someone explaine phrasing, please.

pianojerome,
You are so taken up with argumentative exceptions
that you don't see the wood for the trees.
Please try to be more concise ... these long dissertations on odd scraps by Bartok, Shatokovich and Bach betray a penchant for
quoting the obscure instead of keeping in the mainstream.

only a novice would say

"It may appear to be the most obvious structure if all you listen to is Mozart and Haydn, but really, it is not the only structure in music that we must concern ourselves with in regard to phrasing."

What about Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Chopin ... to name a few?

Please read my posts in their entirety. They really are not so long, and if you would like me to provide detailed examples, rather than just making blanket statemetns, then I cannot offer you a 3 or 4 sentence post.

The C Minor prelude and fugue is one of the most popular from both books of the well-tempered clavier. The C# major fugue is also very popular -- not obscure at all.

Would you like more examples of well-known frequently performed Bach pieces? I would just list the pieces to be concise - which is what you ask me to do - but then you'll probably just pass over the list, not taking it for what it is.


Sure, the 8-bar phrase is very important in their music. If you look at history, what you see is a huge shift in style and tonal language around the end of the 1700s. Mozart and Haydn were extremely innovative, and composition based very often on the 4- and 8-bar phrase was one of their innovations. Beethoven's style followed out of this, and the romantic composers followed after Beethoven.

However, before Mozart and Haydn, the High Baroque music was very different, as I have shown with several *not* obscure examples (from the Well-Tempered Clavier). These pieces are not obscure; Bach is one of the most celebrated composers of all time; all music school students perform his music; his preludes and fugues are a requirement for many musical school auditions. And... many of his preludes and fugues do not have these 8-bar phrases which were developed into a new tonal system by the classical composers (Mozart, Haydn).

During the 20th century, composers decided that they needn't follow this same structure, and they often didn't. In fact, a lot of their music isn't in major or minor modes, either. A lot of their music isn't even tonal. So, we can say that maybe a lot of the music we will play will be in major or minor modes, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't concern ourselves with other modes. Perhaps a lot of music will be tonal, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't concern ourselves as well with atonal music.

You obviously can't be concise.

btb,

When we talk about keyboard music that people might perform today, we are talking about music from a period of 500 years or so. The composers you mentioned are all from a 100-year period in the middle. It is true that the influence of the 8-bar phrase still is commonly expressed, and it is true that perhaps earlier music also was contstructed similarly, it is important to note that the 8-bar phrase really made itself omnipresent only in the late 1700s.

Look at earlier music! Look at later music! The examples I provided are not obscure. Look at more of Bach's music, for example. You'll see that a lot of these very popular and very much performed pieces do not follow the 8-bar structure.

It is not my intention to say that most music doesn't follow the structure -- perhaps, most of it does. But *a lot* of it doesn't. That is my point - that *a lot* of our music (not obscure music that nobody plays, but very popular frequently performed works) does not follow this structure.

No, I can't. Unfortunately, you may have to read a few paragraphs now and then.

Sorry.

Try to make in in four lines and scrub round Bach.

I deleted the post, because the logic isn't quite right.

To make it in four lines, I could just separate each example by commas... it would still be just as long.

The bulk of that post (now deleted) was a concise list of 15 examples. My actual comments? 3 or 4 sentences.

btb: you reminded me of Gyro, who argued that the "default touch" of piano playing is legato, among other things that are as ridiculous as they can be possibly be.

btb... do you want me to just make unsupported blanket statements? I can do that, and then my posts will be as short as yours.

If you want me to try and substantiate and support my arguments with exmples, then I am terribly sorry: but you are going to have to read my examples and explanations.

Take a look at the Bach Fugue 5 WTC Book I ... the maestro kicks off with his 8 measure theme ... moves the theme an octave higher for the next 8 measures ... and then throws in a magnificent resolution over 16 measures ... then an 8 measure variation ... and closes with a brisk-noted 12 note recapitulation and a glorious 2 measure set of chords reminding of the keynote.

I'm beginning to wonder whether you fully understand the format of dual statements and resolutions which permeate classical music.

That's interesting, though I'm not sure I fully understand it. (Please read my whole post: I am trying to be as concise as I can, but in order to explain my misunderstanding... well... I must explain, mustn't I?)

The main theme is actually only 1 bar long... and it is sequentially introduced in each of the voices over the course of the first 5 measures.

I do see something new at m. 9 (that figure in the top voice), which might lead one to see the first 8 measures as one section, and m. 9 the beginning of a new section (does section=phrase?). BUT... it disappears after 2 measures! Then it is back to this stuff that is just like the beginning! Only 7 bars later do I see it again, and then only for 3 measures!

Is it coincidence that it just so happens there are 24 measures + 3 at the end? I do not understand how you have divided these 24 measures into 2 phrases of 8 and 16 measures.

Would you explain further?

Ah! Now I see where you come unstuck ... you start you measure count from the opening note ...
but the merry little ripple which opens the work is only half a measure ... start counting from the next complete measure.

Wait a minute...

Are we talking about the same fugue?

Fugue 5 from book 1 has only 27 measures.

You mention 8 measure theme + 8 measure theme an octave higher + 16 measure resolution + 8 measure variation + 12 notes of recap and 2 chordal measures.

That = 40 measures + the recap and chords, but the fugue only has 27 measures.

In my score, there is no half-measure at the opening. It starts on a full measure.

pianojerome,
Sorry you were given a bum steer ... I was working off my own hand transcription of the Fugue 5 where I double spread the measures to
give a better proportion to the 32nd note ripples ... please halve the previous numbers to read 4.4.8 resolution.

Having just played through the Fugue after digging out my dog-eared copy of the WTC Book I, I notice that the opening measure is not a full measure ... but starts with a rest.

The unfortunate chopped up format of written keyboard music has not allowed your eye to see the continuity of the theme reaching to 4 measures ... your sighting of the theme in the first measure is only the start of the theme.
Those repeating ripples are just part of the fabric of the overall theme.

Apologies for having highjacked this thread ...
and labouring the point about the structure of Bach's music ... those singers made my day in suggesting that the coming up for a breathe in choral work invariably marks off the phrasing ... could it be that this lung capacity was one of the reasons why music tends to be split up into
4-8 measure portions?

We use this format to this day. I'm looking at Gerwhwin's "Embraceable You"
8 measures
Embrace me, My sweet embraceable you (4 measures)
Embrace me, You irreplaceable you ( 4 measures)
Just one look at you, my heart grew tipsy in me,
You and you alone bring out the gipsy in me! (8)

I tried doing a Frank Sinatra with the words and
found myself coming up for breath after each line... the girls could be so right.

Hey btb, can't you be concise? Cut that dissertation down to 4 lines!


Numbers still don't add up for me. So it's now 4 + 4 + 8 + 4 + 12 notes and 2 chordal measures = 20 measures + 12 notes and 2 chordal measures. There are 26 total measures (plus the single whole note chord at the end, which you seem to not count), so are the last 12 notes you refer to spread out over 4 measures before 2 final chordal measures? I'm not seeing that in my score.


How about that C Minor Prelude that I wrote about earlier? How would you phrase that? How about the C# Major fugue that I also wrote about? Do you see an 8-bar structure in those that I'm missing?

Please advise when the opening 4.4.8 makes sense ... please remember that this thread is
on "phrasing" ... let's not highjack.

No, it doesn't make sense.


Because, first of all, the extended theme is *3* measures, not 4

(beat 2 of measure 1 --> beat 2 of measure 4 = 3 complete measures)

and then it is repeated an octave higher in *3* measures, not 4.

(beat 2 of measure 4 --> beat 2 of measure 7 = 3 complete measures)

...


(I've been carefully considering your one example, and still am thinking about it... I'm still waiting for you to even comment on my several detailed examples, aside from just calling them 'obscure' -- which they aren't.)

It also doesn't make sense for even *more* reasons.

There are actually 4 voices in here, and there are several motifs. He's not repeating the "extended theme" an octave higher, but actually he is just introducing it (initially just the first 2 beats of that "extended theme") in each of the four voices, one at a time... and because Bach composed most of his fugues by introducing the theme in each voice on only the tonic (in this case, D) or the dominant (A), and because in this particular fugue there are 4 voices, naturally these motifs will be played at various octaves (so the voices don't play on top of each other). So he isn't even repeating a "3-measure phrase" an octave higher... he introduced the theme in the first voice on the tonic (D). Then, in the second measure, he introudced the theme in the 2nd voice on the dominant (A). Then, in the 4th measure, he is introducing it in the 3rd voice on the tonic (an octave higher because the alto voice usually is higher than bass voice), and then finally he introduces it in the 4th voice on the dominant (again, and octave higher only because the soprano voice is generally higher than the tenor voice).

.

It gets better ----

The extended theme that you talk about is actually several motifs pieced together, and what he is doing in each measure is he is building up these various motifs in the different voices in different combinations.

i.e. even where you think it is repeated an octave higher, it is not repeated an octave higher, because he has introduced new voices with new combinations of motifs!

After the "3 bar extended theme" in the first two voices (not 4)...

And then after the 3 bar "repeat an octave higher" in the other two voices (not 4)...

It seems as though he 'repeats the first two measures again', but not quite: he has repeated them, but he also added other of the motifs to it (other motifs that have already been introduced). At this time, he is writing in 4 voices, while in the beginning it was only 1 voice, and then 2 voices (in the 2nd measure where the 2nd voice is introduced).

You might say, OK, 3 + 3 + 2 is 8, now it is a new phrase.

Wrong.

The next two measures sound different, because there is a new development of one motif introduced -- but other motifs are repeated pretty much exactly! And this only goes on for two measures... then that new development is gone after only 2 measures, and it's back to new combinations of the original motifs!


He is not sectionalizing the music into nice phrases of 8 and 16. He's got a few simple motifs, and he is just repeating them and recombining them in 4 voices throughout the entire fugue (until the end). That is what a fugue is: it takes a few small themes, and alters them slightly and does variations and combines these in different ways throughout the piece.

It so happens, there happen to be 24 measures + 3 chordal measures at the end, so you *can* divide into 8 and 16 -- but that doesn't make any sense to do so, for the reasons I've listed above.