Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
113 registered members (Antihero, Aimer, AndrewJCW, anamnesis, Animisha, 29 invisible), 1,721 guests, and 7 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
help with trills and melodies #465554
05/09/04 08:31 AM
05/09/04 08:31 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 48
England
ellaella Offline OP
Full Member
ellaella  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 48
England
Hi! I'm new here smile

I'm 15 and loooove to play the piano. I'm currently learning the slow movement from one of Mozart's piano sonatas. I hope someone can help me out.

There is a secion where there is a long trill in the right hand, while the left hand is playing a fairly complicated melody lower down. I've heard recordings of this piece, and it sounds so light and elegant, however, when I attempt it, I seem to thump out the tune in the left hand and it sounds heavy and messy. I find it pretty difficult to keep the trill in the right hand going, too. Is practice all it needs, or is there something else I can do???

TIA!


Ella
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items, digital piano dolly, music theme party goods
Re: help with trills and melodies #465555
05/09/04 06:08 PM
05/09/04 06:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,503
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member
piqué  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,503
ella,
we recently had a thread on playing trills, you might want to do a search for it. a number of techniques were suggested.

one that i've used is to play the trill very slowly first, in time with the beat, and then gradually speed it up.


piqué

now in paperback:
[Linked Image]

Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey
Re: help with trills and melodies #465556
05/09/04 06:51 PM
05/09/04 06:51 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 104
North Hatley, Quebec
wienerfingers Offline
Full Member
wienerfingers  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 104
North Hatley, Quebec
It is definitely not the easiest thing to be trilling madly away for bars and bars in one hand and at the same time be trying to more or less forget about that hand and play a melody properly in the other. As Piqu says, timing is key. It helps me when I 1st determine the note value (32nds, 64ths, whatever) of the trill, slow it down as required, and, while keeping the trill perfectly rythmic, pay strict attention to which notes (and beats) in the trill the melody notes coincide with.

Then just grind it out practicing day after day and build the speed up.

Re: help with trills and melodies #465557
05/10/04 11:59 PM
05/10/04 11:59 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 60
Australia
Matthew_dup1 Offline
Full Member
Matthew_dup1  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 60
Australia
I thought there were also some good ideas for learning trills in Fundamentals of Piano Practice, 2nd Edition by Chuan C. Chang:

http://members.aol.com/chang8828/contents.htm

- eg. the RH 'teaching' the LH.

There are a lot of good ideas on practicing other things as well...

Re: help with trills and melodies #465558
05/11/04 03:55 AM
05/11/04 03:55 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,519
European Union
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member
benedict  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,519
European Union
This problem seems to be related to what I find is the main problem of piano playing : complete independance of the two hands.

Maybe a separate thread on all the ways to develop this skill would be welcome.

I should think that if one can play stride left hand (like in Joplin or Chopin or Satie)that has a life of its own while the melody is clearly independant and at the same time in a sort of conversation with the bass, then the independance of the trill and the melody should not be such a problem.

This independance should be taught IMHO from lesson one. In fact, the emphasis on auditions or playing more difficult pieces (for adult (re)beginners) starts and roots the habit of playing with "stuck together hands". Then the only way to get these hands unstuck is to start all over again. And of course, it is more difficult and requires special pedagogical skills (including a lot of TLC laugh )


Benedict
Re: help with trills and melodies #465559
05/11/04 07:50 AM
05/11/04 07:50 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,980
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,980
Victoria, BC
Benedict:

"Stride"? in Chopin? Not quite, I'm afraid, mon cher monsieur. By definition, "stride" is a "solo jazz piano style that arose after 1910 and especially in the 1920s, in Harlem, New York. [...] It is largely derived from ragtime, adapting ragtime's left-hand paterns to form the distinctive 'stride bass'." (Groves)

I think what you may be referring to are the LH accompaniments in many of Chopin's works which are just an extension of the 'Alberti bass' from the 18th century.

If that's not it, what are you referring to? Can you give some concrete examples?

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: help with trills and melodies #465560
05/11/04 09:16 AM
05/11/04 09:16 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,519
European Union
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member
benedict  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,519
European Union
You are absolutely right : my use of the term stride is mistaken.

What I mean is when the left hand plays the root(or the dominant) of a chord and then plays the triad or an inversion of it one octave higher.
I find this very often in stride or jazz accompaniment and I find it in many Chopin's Waltzes(op 69 n2,op 64 n2).

Maybe Scott Joplin was inspired by Chopin's waltzes.

Isn't there a more adequate name than "Alberti bass".For me, the Alberti bass is usually more in the form of an arpeggio (like 1-5-3-5).

I wonder if "Mon cher monsieur" is not a bit on the formal side, "Mon cher", "Mon cher ami", "Mon cher Benedict" sont peut-tre plus adquats tant donn que nous passons de trs agrablement sur ce forum depuis un certain temps dj.
Qu'en pensez-vous, cher BruceD ?

Regards.

smile


Benedict
Re: help with trills and melodies #465561
05/11/04 11:10 AM
05/11/04 11:10 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,980
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,980
Victoria, BC
Quote
Originally posted by benedict:

What I mean is when the left hand plays the root(or the dominant) of a chord and then plays the triad or an inversion of it one octave higher.
I find this very often in stride or jazz accompaniment and I find it in many Chopin's Waltzes(op 69 n2,op 64 n2).

Isn't there a more adequate name than "Alberti bass".For me, the Alberti bass is usually more in the form of an arpeggio (like 1-5-3-5).

Regards.

smile
Benedict:

Thank you for the explanation; now I know what you were referring to. I wonder who was the first to use that type of LH accompaniment. I know Schubert used it extensively in his dances (waltzes, laendler, etc.)

Your association with jazz is probably much greater than mine; my limited understanding of it and of "stride" is that the LH often plays not just the tonic (dominant) note of the chord but often a tenth-chord followed by an inversion of the chord an octave higher, as you state.

My "Alberti bass" reference was to the writing that you find, for example in many of the Chopin Nocturnes, which can be considered a variant - or an extension over a wider range - of the basic "Alberti" figure:

Op 9, No 1
Op 9, No 3
Op 27, No 2
Op 32, No 2, and even parts of
Op 72, No 1.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: help with trills and melodies #465562
05/11/04 04:05 PM
05/11/04 04:05 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,519
European Union
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member
benedict  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,519
European Union
Cher Bruce,

What I found is that a standard Alberti Bass does not necessarily provide an improvement in independance because it is quite easy to realize.

The formula which I mentioned of playing an octave at the bass and then the chord one octave higher is a real challenge for the continuity of the melody at the right hand.

It is even more powerful if you play the octave on the root and then on the fifth.

I have found that it helped me significantly to improve my independance.

Regards.


Benedict
Re: help with trills and melodies #465563
05/11/04 04:53 PM
05/11/04 04:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,464
Chapel Hill, NC
Stanza Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Stanza  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,464
Chapel Hill, NC
In regards to the original post:

Think of the trill "in threes" in other words, instead of say, 12121212 etc., try 121 212 121 212 etc. Start slowly and gradually speed up.
It works very well to help with evenness.


Good Luck!


Estonia L190 #7004
Casio PX 310
Yamaha NP 30

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Spartacus Love Theme by Grusin - Last version
by foster12. 10/20/19 02:47 PM
Your lie in April: helping or harming classical music?
by Ijustplaypiano. 10/20/19 01:33 PM
Comfort Cusion
by dmd. 10/20/19 01:23 PM
Are you lonesome playing the piano?
by WeakLeftHand. 10/20/19 12:15 PM
What's Hot!!
Our August Newsletter is Out!
------------------
Mason & Hamlin Piano Factory Tour!

-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics194,631
Posts2,881,295
Members94,721
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1