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Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46126
08/04/07 01:44 AM
08/04/07 01:44 AM
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w.kyle.c Offline OP
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Hi, I'm wondering if anybody has any information or knows anything about bosendorfer making a piano for Kimball. I played a piano today that a man is selling and he said that it was all bosendorfer with the kimball name on it and that it was made for the olympics. I tend to believe him because the piano did not sound like a kimball. It was probably one of the best pianos i have ever heard or played and it was only about 5'9". Also it had the bosendorfer crest above the kimball name. If it helps the serial number was T61943. Any information would be greatly appreciated because i am very interested in this piano. Thanks.

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Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46127
08/04/07 02:12 AM
08/04/07 02:12 AM
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Kimball bought Boesendorfer and owned it for a time. I believe they copied one model of Boesendorfer of about the size you mentioned and it did indeed *look* like the Boesendorfer, but I believe it was NOT made by Boesendorfer, but in Kimball's U.S. factory.

I've never seen one, but I've always been curious how that copy turned out. Some of the Steinerts are said by some techs to be better as copies of the Steinway they were patterned from than the original. I might doubt Kimball did as well or even equalled their model.

Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46128
08/04/07 02:16 AM
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Thanks. It got me curious because i've played 7'+ steinways and baldwins and kawais and mason and hamlins and this one sounded as good as all of them and better than most(M&H sounds the best).

Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46129
08/04/07 02:24 AM
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Interesting to hear your opinion. Kimball gets no respect around here and I think that's because of the pervasive presence of huge numbers of their lowly spinets and consoles most encountered in the 50s and 60s. But one of my favorites is an old Kimball from 1896. Everyone who has ever played it has said "gorgeous tone" with evident shock. Many have asked after buying it. But I keep it for sentimental reasons. It was my first. So I know it's not beyond Kimball's capabilities to have gotten it right at some point in their history.

[Edit: Kimball also did a knock off of one of the 6'7" Boesendorfers. That is the one that always intrigued me most.]

Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46130
08/04/07 02:36 AM
08/04/07 02:36 AM
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Talk about collector's items.

Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46131
08/04/07 02:38 AM
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Interesting. I have played kimballs before i have agreed with the reputation. It though they were terrible. This one was different.

Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46132
08/04/07 02:43 AM
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The 6'7" was a copy. But for a while a 9' concert grand model 960/961 was made for Kimball in Vienna.


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Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46133
08/04/07 02:46 AM
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w.kyle.c Offline OP
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Also he said it was made in 1984

Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46134
08/04/07 03:50 AM
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Kimball called it their Viennese collection I believe there were 2 models 5'8" and the 6'7"
They were made by Kimball in the eighties. I remember the Bosendorfer looking harp(color wise) It was mostly a retail sales affiliation to Bosendorfer.( Kimball owning Bosendorfer) I also remember the lids were like concrete in that the parts were particleboard. They sounded more like an American piano rather than European.


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Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46135
08/04/07 04:11 AM
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w.kyle.c Offline OP
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Pianobroker--Thanks, now that you mentioned it i do remember it it saying viennese on the front right of the fallboard.

Do you know what a good price for one of these might be?

Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46136
08/04/07 04:38 AM
08/04/07 04:38 AM
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w.kyle.c
It's not exactly a high demand piano in this day and age. I think as an end user buying from a private party, maybe 4K if it is really mint and you personally love it. For a dealer it is gonna be a hard sell for bigger $ with all the competitive pianos in the marketplace. Though I do remember these pianos were not cheap new. I sold a preowned one(ebony satin 5'8") in 1998 for
7Kish. But back then there were not many decent non Asian pianos in a lower price point in all original cond. aside from Aeolian made Knabes,Chickerings and ?


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Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46137
08/04/07 10:14 AM
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It does sound like a "Viennese Edition". The 6'7" model actually used a Bosie 200 plate, not just one of the same color.

If there is a Bosendorfer crest above the Kimball name - it MIGHT be something else. I have never actually seen one, but apparently Bosie made a few pianos for Kimball that were not 9 ft.

BoseEric can make more comment as he was a concert technician for Bosie at the time.

Last comment, technically Kimball never owned Bosendorfer. Jasper Woodworking Inc. owned both companies. They also owned cabinet makers and furniture companies, which was their core business.


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Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46138
08/04/07 02:05 PM
08/04/07 02:05 PM
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We had a used Viennese 6'7" about 3 years ago. It wasn't a Bosey, but it was tons better than the typical Kimball.


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Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46139
08/04/07 02:29 PM
08/04/07 02:29 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by w.kyle.c:
Hi, I'm wondering if anybody has any information or knows anything about bosendorfer making a piano for Kimball. I played a piano today that a man is selling and he said that it was all bosendorfer with the kimball name on it and that it was made for the olympics. I tend to believe him because the piano did not sound like a kimball. It was probably one of the best pianos i have ever heard or played and it was only about 5'9". Also it had the bosendorfer crest above the kimball name. If it helps the serial number was T61943. Any information would be greatly appreciated because i am very interested in this piano. Thanks.
I think the guys here have it pretty well covered, but he-who-must-not-be-named was one of Kimball's bigger dealers at the time, so he might have another perspective.

You can find him at :

http://www.armleg.com/forum/viewfor...75c26120354d74fd088&mforum=pianosinc


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Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46140
08/04/07 02:34 PM
08/04/07 02:34 PM
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Derick II Offline
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He also was a Bosendorfer dealer. And, if I remember correctly, he one time posted that Bosendorfer did make a few concert(?) grands for Kimball with the Kimball name on them.

Derick


"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)

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Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46141
08/04/07 04:21 PM
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w.kyle.c Offline OP
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Thanks guys, i will see if i can get he-who-must-not-be-named to respond to see if he can give me anymore information.

also if someone could post a bösendorfer crest that woiuld help a bit because i'm fairly sure it was the bosendorfer crest i just haven't seen one in awhile

Also if kimball has a crest could you post that so that i could compare. I don't think i've seen one before


Also the guy i am buying from is a piano collector so it wouldn't suprise me if it was a unique piano. He probable has about 20 grand pianos including mason and hamlin, 1931 everett, and a frech case Louis XV Baldwin(which was beautiful but only sounded slightly better than the kimball which ws surprising).

Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46142
08/04/07 05:12 PM
08/04/07 05:12 PM
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I'm not sure which crest you'd like to see. The first one is the crest on the plate, the second is on the soundboard. The latter was just taken with my cell phone as my digital camera is having "issues". Hope this helps.

Derick

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Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46143
08/04/07 05:50 PM
08/04/07 05:50 PM
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All of the Kimballs used at the Olympics that year were white.Other then that I know nothing about the subject.Hows that for honesty?

Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46144
08/04/07 06:38 PM
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DerickII--thanks for the pictures. If it is one of those it is the one in the first picture on the left. Although it's hard to see. I looked up a picture of the bosendorf crest and the one that came up was clearly an eagle or some kind of bird. The one on the kimball did not stand out as anything. I did not look hard at it to figure out what it was i just remember it did not jump out as a bird.

VGrantano--That's interesting because this one is definately black. it is a viennese though. and it doesn't have the olympic symbol on it which was not on the ones used in the olympics but added to later models.

Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46145
08/04/07 07:25 PM
08/04/07 07:25 PM
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Souderton PA
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I can't say definitely if that piano was made by Bosendorfer.

I can say that there Bosendorfer grands that were sold with the Kimball name on them.

Our company had purchased one of the 7' model 225's that had been at Radio City Music Hall in NY. I recall at the time that Rich G. doubted that - which we ended up getting a copy of the air freight bill to authenticate it.

With the piano we had it was obviously not a garden variety Kimball just by playing it. When you took a look under the piano it was more obvious. We got the piano without casters and ended up having Kimball get them from Vienna - they cost over $200 each.

Any decent piano tech or knowledgeable dealer should be able to tell the differenc by looking at the piano.


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Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46146
08/04/07 07:43 PM
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Thanks alot Glenn. As i said the guys tech is a RPT with the guild so i would assume that he would have told the guy if he thought it was not mostly bosendorfer. I am going to call his tech though to make sure it's been serviced recently and when i do i will ask him what he thinks of the piano. Thanks for that information. I find it hard to believe that this is purely kimball. The man selling it said that it was mostly bosendorfer so maybe the parts and such were bosendorfer and it was simply put together by kimball.

What would you see by looking under it that would tell you if it was kimball or not?

Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46147
08/04/07 07:55 PM
08/04/07 07:55 PM
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The way it's finished off and the box-frame support structure.

Derick

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Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46148
08/04/07 08:06 PM
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w.kyle.c Offline OP
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oh wow....ok thanks derick. That is different from other pianos i have seen. I'll have to take a look under it next time i go down there and see what it is. Thanks

Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46149
08/05/07 02:27 AM
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Chickgrand's observation that they get no respect because of their uprights is spot on! But..like many makes there was a time that they DID make some decent pianos. I played a Viennese ed. Kimball in the late 80's and it was a fine piano, though as noted by PB some of the case parts were not made of the best materials. It had a warm full sound and a nice well-regulated action which surprised me. The same might be said of other makes. I know that Baldwin in later years was using plywood tops and plywood keybeds, the keybeds being a Delignit style of manufacture. I am negotiating on a Kimball concert-grand that comes highly recommended from an RPT of long acquaintance. This is a "golden-age" vintage though.
John

Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46150
08/05/07 03:00 AM
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Thanks..that makes me fell better that the viennese is edition is a more quality kimball. I was hoping me ears just weren't broken.

I think i'm going to go for it. Now I just have to sell the S&C i have now.

Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46151
08/05/07 03:04 AM
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I sent RPT Elizabeth Ward an e-mail with my question.In 1984 Elizabeth was asked by Kimball International Piano Company to service all pianos, both Kimball and Bösendorfer concert grands provided for the 1984 Louisiana World Exposition in New Orleans.

I thought she might have some useful information. This is what she said


Thanks for contacting the Piano Technicians Guild,
This piano was made by Kimball, based on designs from Bosendorfer executed
by the engineers at Kimball. The pianos used at the Olympics did not have
the soundboard decal with the 1984 Olympics on it. That was added to later
models. The Viennese edition Kimballs were the best pianos Kimball ever
made. I would recommend going to www.ptg.org and clicking on the find a
technician link to locate a local Registered Piano Technician to evaluate
the piano.
Elizabeth Ward, RPT

basically what seems to be the consensus here.

Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46152
08/05/07 01:58 PM
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My teacher had a 6'7" Vienese edition Kimball. It was a nice piano but didn't project very well. Action seemed nicer than a typical Kimball. He had a tough time selling it when he needed to do so.

Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46153
08/07/07 07:20 PM
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I just got word from a well-placed Bosendorfer employee that Bosendorfer did in fact make a few 275 concert grands that WERE 100% Bosendorfer. The only difference was the Kimball name was placed on the piano - other than that it was pure Bosendorfer.

The Viennese editions are not the pianos I just spoke of.

Derick


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Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46154
08/07/07 08:55 PM
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Thanks Derick. I think I've determined that the piano I'm looking at is simply a viennese edition. I looked up viennese kimballs and all of them had a crest above the kimball name. The crest seems to be a Kimball family crest with the bosendorfer bird eagle thing in the middle of it.

Thanks for all the help. If anybody has any opinions on kimball viennese edition pianos that would be helpful. Thanks again.

Re: Bosendorf with a kimball name??? #46155
08/08/07 12:32 PM
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Liz had it right when she said the Viennese Editions (5'8 and 6'7) were the best pianos Kimball made (at least in recent history) and Kimball did take them seriously, but there is a LONG LONG way to go before they become Bosendorfers.

Sorry Rich, the plate and string scale was adapted from Bosendorfer model 200, but nothing actually came from Vienna and there was no other connection to Bosendorfer design and building techniques. (French Lick and Vienna are a long distance from each other, in many ways).

Yes there were some experiments with a Bosendorfer built Kimball concert grand and model 225, but those were one-off instruments and never went into production.

All this being said, the Viennese editions were, for a Kimball, rather nice. Putting on a new set of hammers and shanks made a very nice improvement.


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