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Liszt FEUX FOLLETS!!!!????Plz Help #458812
08/27/02 07:19 AM
08/27/02 07:19 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 89
Morocco,Rabat
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Chopin1980 Offline OP
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Hi everybody i'm a new member and it's my first post here is the story how i discovered this site
i'm an Amateur Pianist and composer
after i left my teacher to study alone (he was a virtuoso but a tyran in term of fingerings he always think his fingerings the best regardless of differences in hand size mine is bigger than him)
when i began studying by my own i practissed all what i wanted i get rid of all the annoying cramer and czerni etudes (horowitz a,d volodos hates them too smile ) and began more technical and musical studies chopin etudes
i play op10n1,2,7,12 op25n1,10,12
and transcendentals Liszt etudes n1 Preludio,n4 Mazeppa and Liszt etudes after paganini n1and 3 la campanella +Alkan the rail way
the problem began when i tried to play FEUX FOLLET n5 of Liszt Transcendetal etudes
i play the first page fast when i arrive to the double note section i slow about 30 % than other pianist i feel a stress i don't have problem with double note technque since i play chopin op10n7 and some of brahms variation on paganini the probelem is the exageration of speed when i hear richer and kissin playing feux follets i said i could never do it
i'm still working the seconde page every day and i'm getting faster but slower and with much stress in the wrist i use it to fasten the double notes after searching in google for help i found this site and i wish if a more experienced pianist or someone who already plays well FEUX FOLLETS could give me hints,help usefull fingerings etc....
i find also the same problem when i try to play the 3ds double notes of chopin etude op25 n6
to make them as fast as lhevine i thing the wrist should help fingers witch stresses me
the strange thing is that i don't feel the same stress when for instance i play write hand reapeated octaves of Liszt 6th Rhapsodie it comes natural so PLZ HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP !!!??
and thanks in advance


Liszt,Rachmaninoff,Chopin,Horowitz had FIVE FINGERS I Have Five Fingers too THEN i can Play what they Play smile
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Re: Liszt FEUX FOLLETS!!!!????Plz Help #458813
08/27/02 07:40 AM
08/27/02 07:40 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 89
Morocco,Rabat
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Chopin1980 Offline OP
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http://muslib.mmv.ru/index_eng.html

u can find a site with pdfs of all liszt transc studies
nice site many scores smile


Liszt,Rachmaninoff,Chopin,Horowitz had FIVE FINGERS I Have Five Fingers too THEN i can Play what they Play smile
Re: Liszt FEUX FOLLETS!!!!????Plz Help #458814
08/27/02 11:29 AM
08/27/02 11:29 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 157
New York
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Wow, you chose some pretty difficult repertoire. Feux Follets is the most difficult of the Transcendental Etudes, Opus 25 Number 6 is, in my opinion, the most difficult of the Chopin Etudes, and all the Hungarian Rhapsodies are murderously difficult.

No offense, but I think you're doing pieces that are way beyond you. If the last thing you studied with your teacher were Cramer and Czerny exercises, then going from that to Feux Follets, Mazeppa, La Campanella, and many of the Chopin etudes you listed is a very big leap. Music is one thing that cannot be rushed; believe me, I have made the mistake before. Definitely aspire to work on the music you listed; all of them are great pieces. But work your way up to them.

Re: Liszt FEUX FOLLETS!!!!????Plz Help #458815
08/27/02 01:56 PM
08/27/02 01:56 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
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Los Angeles
StanSteel Offline
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I am impressed. I am a big fan of etudes myself (excluding all the Bergmuller and Kabalevsky crap of course), but I'm at the very bottom of the ladder, just starting to work my way thru the Chopin's op25.
You mentioned the double notes in Op10 No7 comparing them to the ones in Feux-Follets. Well I think the ones in Feux-Follets are much more diverse and difficult as well.
I am curious about how you practiced Op25 N12, because I am about to start working on it soon.
Did you start both hands together, or one at a time? Can you play it all the way through at tempo with good accuracy?

Oh also I am working on 25-6 right now. The hardest passages for me are the descending scale ones, they just sound staccato frown even at moderate speed. I need way more practice. Anyways as ever it is important to practice this slowly. The key is to push and pull with your upper arm to make your elbow follow your hand so together they form a line perpendicular to the keyboard.


"War does not determine who is right; only who is left."
Re: Liszt FEUX FOLLETS!!!!????Plz Help #458816
08/27/02 05:32 PM
08/27/02 05:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,778
Auckland, New Zealand
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Ted Offline
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Chopin1980:

These two pieces and their associated problems with double notes keep coming up for discussion in all sorts of places. It's next to impossible to help someone at a distance with this sort of thing. The difficulties I experience won't be the same as those Stan faces, and yours will be different again. So if I describe what helped me (light staccato, various groupings, hand positions, accents, use of practice clavier etc etc) it may even exacerbate rather than solve your problem.

These are very difficult pieces, even for people with great talent who have put in hours of hard work. Do you really like them musically or do you just want to feel you can do whatever those famous people do ? Does it really matter how fast you can play double notes beyond a certain point ? Is it not more important to accommodate and understand the musical beauty of a work and gradually bring your technique into harmony with the overall vision, instead of worrying about whether you can run a four minute mile as well as Peter Snell ?


"We shall always love the music of the masters, but they are all dead and now it's our turn." - Llewelyn Jones, my piano teacher
Re: Liszt FEUX FOLLETS!!!!????Plz Help #458817
08/27/02 10:47 PM
08/27/02 10:47 PM
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Chicago, IL USA
Palindrome Offline
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Ruth Slenczynska relates that when she was a girl, studying with Rachmaninoff, she once asked him what the most difficult piece of piano music was. Although he wasn't willing to give any single piece as the most difficult, he did mention that Feux Follets was a very difficult piece. (Slenczynska then learned the piece, using "hand positions that would have made Leschetizky blanch," but we don't really know what her performance sounded like.)


There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians
Re: Liszt FEUX FOLLETS!!!!????Plz Help #458818
08/28/02 01:34 AM
08/28/02 01:34 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
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Los Angeles
StanSteel Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Palindrome:
Ruth Slenczynska relates that when she was a girl, studying with Rachmaninoff, she once asked him what the most difficult piece of piano music was. Although he wasn't willing to give any single piece as the most difficult, he did mention that Feux Follets was a very difficult piece. (Slenczynska then learned the piece, using "hand positions that would have made Leszchetisky blanch," but we don't really know what her performance sounded like.)
Rach probably admired that piece a lot.
As somebody mentioned before on this forum, one of Rach's preludes sounds a lot like Feux-Follets.
Also in the third movement of his #3 concerto (about halfway through), there's a passage in double notes that sounds just like that too.


"War does not determine who is right; only who is left."
Re: Liszt FEUX FOLLETS!!!!????Plz Help #458819
08/28/02 01:39 AM
08/28/02 01:39 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 597
Illinois
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Eldon Offline
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Palindrome,
While I've never heard Ruth Slenczynska play "Follets"...I have heard her play La Campanella many times, as well as both Opus 10&25 Chopin Etudes in the same concert! IMO, this is quite a feat.


Sincerely,
Eldon
Re: Liszt FEUX FOLLETS!!!!????Plz Help #458820
08/28/02 04:41 AM
08/28/02 04:41 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 89
Morocco,Rabat
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Chopin1980 Offline OP
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first of all i'll begin with helping (well someone told me to help him with chopin op25 n12) this etudes seem impossible at first glance and as i studied without teacher i began the etude alone
what i did
1) hear all recordings i had Cortot(lot of false notes), Horowitz( extra ordinary volume control and expression) ,Arrau (averrage not bad)

2) to decompose dificulties i found these difficulties
2-1)balance right hand with left hand
2-2)accuracy of notes
3-3)theme rendition

3)dinf solutions to above difficulties
3-1)solution for balance between right/left hand if u hear all famous recordings u will hear
the first notes of both hands accentued this is is not without reason infact when u accent the first notes of LH/RH the thumb of RH and 5th finger of LH of both hands press strongly the hint is to feel the tention the hands will
lean toward left then after this pressure of
E flat and C u will realease ur hand with a litle tention the fingerings are
RH 1(accent 1 and hand lean toward left )-2-5
LH 5(accent 5 same thing)-2-1
this force will make both your hands ballanced for 2 octaves the last octave u will fell the loss of power but i u hear most reccording u will find that the last octave they accent th last note on both hands the easiest way to do that is to slightly detach it from the begining 2 octave and consider it as an arpegio for both hands of RH E flat- G -E flat(accent last note)
LH C -G -C(accent last note)
i mean play last octave as an arrpegio like in op10n11 where last note is accentued
this accent will make both ur hands leaned to right this time giving u tention and power to reverse the processus and descend until u reverse it again
remember ascending motien RH 1st finger LH 5th finger pressed powerfully for first octave
pressed slightely in 2nd and perform last octave as an op10n11 arpegion with last notes presses
when u press ur hands must lean (by wrist motient to the direction of pressing)
in the first hours u may feel tired but after some time it becomes natural and imagine waves
(the sea etude smile )
3-2)solution for accuracy of note use the fingerings according to ur hands some time using always 135 for RH make me mistake but i alternate it like
134 135 135 or 135 134 135 this makes the 5th finger rest and avoids u mistakes

3-3)theme rendition sing it with a recording and
find internal voices like a part in the midle where the thumb sings press the thum to make the theme and the other accompagniment slightly
it's like shubert op90n4 where in the second page only top notes are heard
or like in rachmaninoff op3n2 prelude 2nd and 3d page further question don't hesitate to ask

ANOTHER ANSWER:
no my i don't think my technique doesn't allow me to play what i want to understand me i'll tell u my story i began piano lessons late at 12
and at the time i tought ooh piano is for girls but i was forced to by My Mother my first pianistic education was defiscient and i wasn't serious at the age of 16 and after seing a 13 years old russian girl playing chopin op53 polonaise heroique i said that's marvelous and began practicing seriously a hungarian pianist thamas tkerskedo (now teaching in norway) corrected my bad habbits and began some pieces that i considered impossible for me to play
mainly chopin waltses op64n2,op69n1,2 well easy pieces after his departure 3 years later
a moroccan teacher took me (by the way i'm from morocco )he was rather good but not as virtuoso as thamas he made my pedaling better and gave me good exercises this is the time when i began studying secretly other pieces i learned
schubert op90n4 and a chopin nocturno op48n1
because if i told my teacher that i wana play it he would laugh on me
1 year later they brought me a russian /turkmen orriginate teacher and with two international prizes he was a virtuoso playing all chopin
etudes ,all liszt tanscendental etudes
a lot of prokofiev a lot of liszt rhapsodies
well he too was a good teacher we learned many
pieces together but what made me mad that he focussed on beethoven and mozart witch i don't like to perform and he gave me op299 and 699 of czerny and some cramer exercise the only virtuoso pieaces i learned with him were rachmaninoff op3n2 and op23n5 what i hate abut him is that he thinks that he had the best fingerings after a year and while pracising secretly at home some of my own etudes (i was then influenced by horowitz and trying to make my octaves really fast ) i remember one day improvising one of my compositions with fast octaves he was secretly listening he told me
hey ur octaves are faster than mine!!
and he told but play bach a lot of bach frown
and he kept givving me ****ty pieces that i hate and boring exercise one day i tol him that i wan't to perform chopin op10n1 (i began the first page secretly 3 weeks ago)
he told me look chopin etudes are really very difficult and i learned this etude in 2 years when i was in russia insteed of answering him i played the 1st page he was astonished and told me ok ok let's begin it but don't forget czerny
frown
we began it and during this i discorvered that he used in some parts weird fingerings that he tried to impose on me and i didn't like it because i was using most of chopin fingerings and i played better and faster than him in fact i play better than cortot this etude (the later makes many false note)
so i left my teacher and developed what i call the 5 fingers theory

horowitz,liszt ,cziffra had 5 fingers in their hands i hve also five finger than i can play what they played
it may sound weird but this really helped me gain self confidence and since then i'm lerning pieces easily or sometime with pain but i take my time 3 months for chopin op10n2 for instance
and i think my technique is quite well

NOW if i play chopin op10n7 why can't i play liszt feux follets simply because the double note philosophy is not the same
in op10n7 u play with RH this combinaison (23)(15) but in liszt u use (14)(25)very fast some times (13)(24) and the tempo stresses the fingers and wrist all i need are some hints
yester day i found a Real Player recording for feux follets the longest who play double notes even slower than i do in fact it lasted 4min40 seconds i don't know who played it but it was played with no false note
my favourite recording is dimitry sgouros about 3min32 in fact in the double note section u hear extra left hand music it's not like an accompagniment but u must hear it and compare it to understand it i don't know how he does it
but sounds fascinating


Liszt,Rachmaninoff,Chopin,Horowitz had FIVE FINGERS I Have Five Fingers too THEN i can Play what they Play smile
Re: Liszt FEUX FOLLETS!!!!????Plz Help #458821
08/28/02 05:04 AM
08/28/02 05:04 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 89
Morocco,Rabat
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Chopin1980 Offline OP
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check his feux follets recording here

www.sgourosmp3.com

one more thing to add u stated la campanella as very dificcult well this is fun the only difficult thing is leaps if u parcatice the 2 pages for 3 hours u will do them blindly
in fact it's all hand work i found a hint that makes it easier to use the phalinx of 5th finger to press upper notes this give u a lot of superficie for key press and lessen the risk of
wrong notes

i advice u also to use alfred cortot (Rational Principles of Pinao Forte playing)
very usefull book with many triks and classed by technique chapter for double note for octaves for leaps for glissando octave glissando etc.....

the RACH prelude that sounds like feux follets
is op23 n9 there is a similar etude by Glazounov

as for op25n6 i don't play it yet i juszt said i began it one day and i decided to report it
until one day


Liszt,Rachmaninoff,Chopin,Horowitz had FIVE FINGERS I Have Five Fingers too THEN i can Play what they Play smile
Re: Liszt FEUX FOLLETS!!!!????Plz Help #458822
08/28/02 05:29 AM
08/28/02 05:29 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 89
Morocco,Rabat
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Chopin1980 Offline OP
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http://www.superopera.com/Liszt/liszt.htm
main page here
http://www.superopera.com/f1.htm

i was just browsing and here is where i found the ultra slow version played by a certain
Alberto Cobo well i play faster than him and this makes me happier now but tell me don't u find it weird and strange

again i forgot to add :
some one here said if i like the etudes for technique or for music well as i said i hate
czerny and cramer etudes do u know why
because they are musical or so mechanical as horowitz said in fact i always play only what i want i hate some chopin and liszt etudes for instance

op10n5 in chopin etude (but still usefull for accuracy)
op10n6,9,11
op25n2,n3,n4,n9(the butter fly i find it simply childess)

i hate chopin militarry polonaise sounds interesting first but boring

i hate most schubert sonatas i prefer shorter pieces impromptues and moments musicauts

i hate liszt transcendental studies n3

i hate almost all rachmaninov prelude op23n4

i hate most of mozarts not fantaizias or turkish march
so i'm selective like richer
i play what i love
and i enjoy it if i asked about playing
feux follets fast it's because u can't enjoy the music in a slow movement the mp3 above will prove it compare it with dimitri sgouros version
and i still insist if u have any hint tell me
i'm a pianist my self and i can understand all what u say even remotely just tell me what i must do in the score i have 120-126 metronomic indication if it has to be played that fast than i must play it there is certainly a clu a sollution i'm playin the double note page it now say 95 to 110


Liszt,Rachmaninoff,Chopin,Horowitz had FIVE FINGERS I Have Five Fingers too THEN i can Play what they Play smile
Re: Liszt FEUX FOLLETS!!!!????Plz Help #458823
08/28/02 05:44 AM
08/28/02 05:44 AM
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Morocco,Rabat
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Chopin1980 Offline OP
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i made a litle mistake
3-2)solution for accuracy of note use the fingerings according to ur hands some time using always 135 for RH make me mistake but i alternate it like
134 135 135 or 135 134 135 this makes the 5th finger rest and avoids u mistakes

it's 124 125 125 Or 125 124 125

oups smile


Liszt,Rachmaninoff,Chopin,Horowitz had FIVE FINGERS I Have Five Fingers too THEN i can Play what they Play smile
Re: Liszt FEUX FOLLETS!!!!????Plz Help #458824
08/28/02 06:31 PM
08/28/02 06:31 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
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Los Angeles
StanSteel Offline
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Chopin1980:

Thanks a lot for your pointers about 25-12. One thing I'd like to add that I read somewhere: the fingers should almost be immobile in the same relative position, it's the hand that moves. This helps with accuracy because what you are doing is just playing the same arpeggio at different places on the keyboard. Having tried that on the first page of the etude, I think it makes a lot of sense.


"War does not determine who is right; only who is left."
Re: Liszt FEUX FOLLETS!!!!????Plz Help #458825
08/29/02 02:50 PM
08/29/02 02:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 89
Morocco,Rabat
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Chopin1980 Offline OP
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you welcome
but i don't totaly agree with the imobility of fingers as i described the first tension helps u power ur hands but a slight finger work is
necessary because not moving fingers mean a big tentien to make them stoped so there will be shaking stress in fact this etude is called the sea etude ur hands must be relaxed
the tension at first is like a huge wave when u stress it for the begining accent and then it's going less and less powerfull the bright
last octave like in op10n11 is like when the wave weakened reaches sea rocks and breaks that's how u must imagine it and ur hands must simulate the wave what i think realy meant by imobility of fingers is to use the 2nd finger of ur right hand as a balance point when hand leans from left to right or contrary in descending motient but a litle finger move is necessary to avoid stress

i have good news for me i found the trick to play 2nd page feux follet fast smile


Liszt,Rachmaninoff,Chopin,Horowitz had FIVE FINGERS I Have Five Fingers too THEN i can Play what they Play smile
Re: Liszt FEUX FOLLETS!!!!????Plz Help #458826
09/05/02 01:37 PM
09/05/02 01:37 PM
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Hakki Offline
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Richter can play feux follets at about 152-160 speed. I can play it at 132-144.
Sometimes it is just genetic.
Don't bother if you can play it at 120-126. It is still very demanding to play at that speed.
The only advice that I can give is, be patient. Sometimes you can work on a piece more than a year. Did you know that Lhevinne studied op 25 no 6 for ten years before playing it in public?
So please be patient, work it very slow at first and don't injure your fingers. The moment you feel pain, you have to quit practicing and relax your hands. Best way is stretching your fingers.
Hope this helps.
Hakki.

Re: Liszt FEUX FOLLETS!!!!????Plz Help #458827
09/06/02 05:14 PM
09/06/02 05:14 PM
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Chopin1980 Offline OP
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thanks i'm playing faster now i managed to
find some fingerings that helps playing fast (not cheating) and i managed to know the best finger
wrist combinaison to maximize speed
but please i don't care about metronomic indication just tell me how many minutes takes u to play it
the average is 3min 30,40sec
just tell me to get an exact idea
and thanks
about pain ur right Pain means that somethings
gets wrong with ur body so ur right
and thanks for your help
smile
i didn't know about lhevine
so that's why he played the 3ds so perfectly LOL
ok thanks again CIAO


Liszt,Rachmaninoff,Chopin,Horowitz had FIVE FINGERS I Have Five Fingers too THEN i can Play what they Play smile
Re: Liszt FEUX FOLLETS!!!!????Plz Help #458828
09/06/02 05:48 PM
09/06/02 05:48 PM
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Chopin1980 Offline OP
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by the way it took me 2 years to master
chopin op53
polonaise heroique n6
ur right


Liszt,Rachmaninoff,Chopin,Horowitz had FIVE FINGERS I Have Five Fingers too THEN i can Play what they Play smile
Re: Liszt FEUX FOLLETS!!!!????Plz Help #458829
09/07/02 10:09 AM
09/07/02 10:09 AM
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Hakki Offline
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Well, it takes about 3 min 50 seconds to play the whole etude.
Hakki.

Re: Liszt FEUX FOLLETS!!!!????Plz Help #458830
09/07/02 10:19 AM
09/07/02 10:19 AM
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Chopin1980 Offline OP
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thanks a lot
well i don't wana disturb you or annoy you
but i looked for your e mail in your profile
and i didn't find it could you please send me an
e mail (i promess to keep it secret if you prefer) but i'm impatient to find somone more experienced than me to discuss with him
by the way where are you from and what do u do in life sorry for all these questions but you really helped me and i wish to have more friends here smile
thanks in advance


Liszt,Rachmaninoff,Chopin,Horowitz had FIVE FINGERS I Have Five Fingers too THEN i can Play what they Play smile
Re: Liszt FEUX FOLLETS!!!!????Plz Help #458831
09/07/02 04:24 PM
09/07/02 04:24 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,725
I am an amateur pianist too. I am from Turkey. I am afraid that I can't help you much other than giving short advices on this forum (sorry). But for your information: I went through almost all the Czerny etudes, scales, arpeggios, I even studied Hanon and several study books of Beniamino Cesi extensively in my early years. Some may find this boring and time consuming. But that was the way I was thought to play piano.
Anyway, Liszt's teacher was Czerny as you might know. I advice studying Czerny's The School of Virtuoso op.365 (60 Studies) before attempting Liszt Etudes. And scales, scales and more scales all the time...
Hakki.

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