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Re: Alkan most overlooked pianist? #447415
07/12/04 10:19 PM
07/12/04 10:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,073
Toronto
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Googlism Offline
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Joined: Aug 2002
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Toronto
Goldberg would be a worthy opponent in a 'Chopin and his greatness' debate laugh




____________________

"... It is a skill you go on learning all your life: the more you write, the more you learn."

Harry Freedman on the craft of composing
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Re: Alkan most overlooked pianist? #447416
07/12/04 10:49 PM
07/12/04 10:49 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 35
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glurf Offline
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glurf  Offline
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 35
Nearly everything Chopin wrote is a masterpiece and he did it all in such a short time span. Alkan simply doesnt have enough good material. I think that most songs over 10 minutes tend to get boring and repetitive anyways. Any Sonata for that matter.

Re: Alkan most overlooked pianist? #447417
07/13/04 12:58 AM
07/13/04 12:58 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 114
Wiltshire . UK
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Gflat Offline
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 114
Wiltshire . UK


" You want to play the what !?!"
Re: Alkan most overlooked pianist? #447418
07/13/04 01:09 AM
07/13/04 01:09 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 114
Wiltshire . UK
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Gflat Offline
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 114
Wiltshire . UK
Quote
Originally posted by Gflat:
Quote
Originally posted by Goldberg:
[b] It appears that I'm the only one on the forum who would put Alkan before Chopin, and one of the few that would put Liszt before Chopin! Not that it really matters to me, because it really is about personal opinion, I believe, so it's pointless to argue. In my highly untrained and, most likely, foolish and stupid opinion, Chopin is both overrated and underrated; that is, his popular pieces shouldn't be popular and his unpopular pieces should be more popular because, to me, they're much more enjoyable and, at least in most cases, are more characteristic of Chopin. My favorite set by Chopin, for instance, is the set of mazurkas, which is generally looked down upon or overlooked by most people. In general, though, what puts me off a little bit about Chopin is his slight lack to accomplish any majorly convincing works on a large scale (might I remind you now this IS my personal opinion, before you all start screaming poison at me and ripping my head off, which has happened quite enough over this topic) and instead seems more set in simple, "short-ish" pieces that briefly, yet masterfully I admit, instill a certain mood.
I'm not going to say quite yet that I consider Chopin to be a terrible composer by any means, but I still think more highly of Liszt and Alkan based purely, as I said, on a vastly unguided personal opinion.

*despite all of these disclaimers, Goldberg uneasily dons a flame-retardant outfit and braces himself*
[/b]
No need to my friend . I certainly will not rip your head off (just your fingers laugh ) It is all opinion and that is in fact exactly what music thrives upon and always has done.

I would ask though if you could maybe be more detailed as to why you think how you do on this subject.

In respect of large scale works / weakness's it could be argued that Chopin maybe had problems with the 'sonata' style in the classical sense and how to shape that within his own creative thinking.

imo he was always wrestling with ( for him )an outdated format and constantly trying to escape the boundaries of it. Strucuraly some of his major works have weakness in respect of 'classical' style . However again a few would argue that his writing is so poetic , harmonically and melodically unique and ear pleasingly friendly that it does not weaken the overall quality of his writing

Added to which is a fantastically pianistically writing style that is again unique to him and makes him accessible by almost everybody listener and player alike

I don't think you could say that about definitely Alkan and generally speaking Liszt although I agree there are some wonderful things by him too


" You want to play the what !?!"
Re: Alkan most overlooked pianist? #447419
07/13/04 05:25 AM
07/13/04 05:25 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 114
UK
elfen Offline
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elfen  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 114
UK
Quote
Originally posted by Gflat:
I know that when one thinks of 'piano' Chopin's name come straight to mind even for non musicians
Majority of people I know associates Elton John or Richard Clayderman with piano. wink

Re: Alkan most overlooked pianist? #447420
07/13/04 06:10 AM
07/13/04 06:10 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,749
McAllen, TX
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Brendan Offline
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Joined: May 2001
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McAllen, TX
Quote
Originally posted by glurf:
I think that most songs over 10 minutes tend to get boring and repetitive anyways. Any Sonata for that matter.
Wow.

WOW.

Re: Alkan most overlooked pianist? #447421
07/13/04 06:27 AM
07/13/04 06:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,926
New York
netizen Offline
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netizen  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,926
New York
Quote
Originally posted by elfen:
Quote
Originally posted by Gflat:
[b] I know that when one thinks of 'piano' Chopin's name come straight to mind even for non musicians
Majority of people I know associates Elton John or Richard Clayderman with piano. wink [/b]
and that'd be why Juilliard has Elton playing a benefit concert for them....To bring more money into their coffers....


the link


"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that
we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."-- Theodore Roosevelt
Re: Alkan most overlooked pianist? #447422
07/13/04 06:58 AM
07/13/04 06:58 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,506
Denver, Colorado
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AndrewG Offline
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,506
Denver, Colorado
Alkan, IMHO, sits where he belongs.

Re: Alkan most overlooked pianist? #447423
07/13/04 07:05 AM
07/13/04 07:05 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,235
U.S.
Goldberg Offline
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Goldberg  Offline
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Posts: 1,235
U.S.
I agree that Chopin's work is much more easily accessible to the listener (and pianist) but as time goes on in my admittedly short pianistic career (5 years) I still find I grow less fond of Chopin. I did intentionally cite the sonatas because I felt that these mainly demonstrated his slight lack to complete convincing large scale works...but I also must confess that Liszt's own B minor sonata is a work to which I have rarely been sympathetic (Cziffra's recording does it for me, at least).
Now, I must say that for me, Chopin's genius is seen most clearly in the majority of his dance works: Polonaises (most of them, at least), Mazurkas, Waltzes, and Rondos. Once again, I don't *hate* Chopin (I'd choose him over LOTS of other composers any day) but Liszt and Alkan just seem to "do more" for me. I also think it's worth to note, on a strictly personal level again, that I've always been a little confused about and held mixed opinions of the Romantic era in general. I know it is very easily understood and accessed by the majority of pianists, but my favorite music comes from the Baroque, Classical, some postRomantic and Contemporary times. Plus, I'm a foolish 16 year old who doesn't know what the heck he's talking about!!

Re: Alkan most overlooked pianist? #447424
07/13/04 07:59 AM
07/13/04 07:59 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,073
Toronto
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Googlism Offline
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Joined: Aug 2002
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Toronto
So why do you favour Alkan and Liszt over Chopin?
Technical difficulty? flashy repetoire? 'cool-soundng' pieces?




____________________

"... It is a skill you go on learning all your life: the more you write, the more you learn."

Harry Freedman on the craft of composing
Re: Alkan most overlooked pianist? #447425
07/13/04 08:23 AM
07/13/04 08:23 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,235
U.S.
Goldberg Offline
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Posts: 1,235
U.S.
While I don't wish to make this thread "heated" in any way, I must say by your post you are implying that my musical tastes are shallow or superficious, which I don't really appreciate. But, I'm not overly offended either. No, my interest in Liszt and Alkan is more related to a love of complex, transcendental music that, particularly in the case of Alkan, is frequently "orchestral" in nature. I know the majority of people find Liszt's music trashy and bangy, or whatever, but how much do they really listen? I'm also greatly disheartened by those (not necessarily anyone here though) who mistake technical difficulty for lack of musicality. They frown upon virtuostic pieces and I really can't see why! That is, of course, provided that they are still musical. For instance, the Transcendental Etudes or transcriptions of the Beethoven Symphonies. Alkan's Symphony for Solo Piano. For me, though, technical demands have never made me enjoy a piece. But if it's exciting, new, original, and in most cases, thoughtful (and most of these do warrant technical difficulties) then I might like it. Plus, I see no harm in liking "cool-sounding" music. Are you supposed to like "dull-sounding" music?
And before anyone starts going on about my shallow tastes, perhaps you'll consider some of my favorite composers (who take first seat to the others we've discussed in this thread): Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Gibbons, Field, Scriabin, Saint-Saens (for fun), Ornstein, Godowsky, Busoni, Rzewski (though I admit, I need to hear more of his. No complaints yet though!), and of course Schoenberg, Mahler, and Schubert. I must also say I'm turning into quite a fan of Sorabji, but perhaps I must admit that at times, an attraction to him can very much seem to be more of a fascination with his otherwordly demands...
Anyway, those are all composers whom I would put before Liszt, Alkan, and Chopin for listening (as if I can effectively PLAY any of them). Which one of those is shallow, flashy music? Bach, perhaps?
I am being light-hearted, of course, but at the same time keep in mind that my musical tastes (or lack thereof) seem to be a little unusual. I'm not sure if that's good or bad...but hey.

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