|
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
71 members (anotherscott, AaronSF, apianostudent, beeboss, brdwyguy, benkeys, Abdulrohmanoman, 17 invisible),
2,224
guests, and
427
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 388
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 388 |
If there is an arpeggiated sign on both left and right hand chords, do you roll them simultaneously, or do you roll them as if it's one big arpeggiated chord?
prok
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837 |
Simultaneously. If they're to be done as one big chord, the arpeggio line will go all the way up.
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 631
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
It depends on the context, but generally you'd roll the two simultaneously. If the composer wanted you to roll it as one chord, they could extend the arpeggiando sign from one chord to the other (as is often done). There are exceptions - I know von Bulow recommends arpeggiating the separate chords that open his edition of Cramer's etudes as one, with good reason.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 847
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 847 |
yes, simultaneously as in chopin's op.10-no.11 study.
JOHN
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,534
4000 Post Club Member
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,534 |
I believe that an arpeggiated chord is ALWAYS supposed to be played notes-separately from the bottom up, otherwise it makes no musical sense. What is such a chord played rt. and lt. hands simultaneously? Just a mishmash of sound that wouldn't even have a function in some avant-garde modern composition. This is true whether or not the wiggly line is continuous or not--you can't really make the wiggly line continuous without creating a printing mess. And if the rolled chord is only in the rt. hand, with a straight chord in the lt., then you play the lt. hand chord simultaneously with the last note of the arpeggiated chord, rolled from the bottom up.
However, what happens is that people play the rt. and lt. hands simultaneously because it's easier and faster that way, and in fast passages it seems that you wouldn't have enough time to roll the chord in the proper way. And the sound this way is good enough so that you can get by with doing it this way, but actually all such chords should be rolled from bottom up.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862 |
Originally posted by Gyro: I believe that an arpeggiated chord is ALWAYS supposed to be played notes-separately from the bottom up, otherwise it makes no musical sense. What is such a chord played rt. and lt. hands simultaneously? Just a mishmash of sound that wouldn't even have a function in some avant-garde modern composition. This is true whether or not the wiggly line is continuous or not--you can't really make the wiggly line continuous without creating a printing mess. Why the different notations then?
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few
love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,534
4000 Post Club Member
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,534 |
Because it's easier and neater to print the wiggly lines just in front of each chord, instead of continuous from bottom up. It saves ink and typesetting work for the printer and results in a less cluttered score. For example, in the Chopin etude op. 10 no. 11, which is 4 pages of arpeggiated chords, running each wiggly line continuous from bottom up for each set of chords would just clutter up an already cluttered-up score, so they just printed the wiggly lines in front of the rt. and lt. hand chords, with the understanding that you roll them from bottom up.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 631
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
But the rolls in Op. 10 no 11 are meant to be executed simultaneously, not consecutively.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,534
4000 Post Club Member
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,534 |
I disagree. That's the easier way to do it, but the proper way is to roll them from the bottom up. That's the only way that makes musical sense.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 631
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
Every recording of this piece I've heard rolls them simultaneously. I'd be grateful if you could direct me to one that rolls them consecutively, should one exist. There should be plenty, if that really is the way they should be played, right?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837 |
Most composers and musicologists I know would disagree with Gyro. There is a difference in the two notations, and the two should be and are often played differently.
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,534
4000 Post Club Member
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,534 |
Chopin would have played them from bottom up. They sound more musical that way. I cannot believe the ultimate pianist would write the ultimate rolled chord study and then take the easy way out playing it.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 171
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 171 |
If the wiggly line is unbroken from bottom to top, the notes are played separately from bottom to top. If the wiggly line is broken between bass and treble clefs, the hands play simultaneously
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 388
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 388 |
So I guess they should be played simultaneously?
Are the first note and last note of each chord played at the same time, that is, both hands start and end at the same time?
prok
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 710
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 710 |
Originally posted by Gyro: I believe that an arpeggiated chord is ALWAYS supposed to be played notes-separately from the bottom up, otherwise it makes no musical sense. What is such a chord played rt. and lt. hands simultaneously? Just a mishmash of sound that wouldn't even have a function in some avant-garde modern composition. This is true whether or not the wiggly line is continuous or not--you can't really make the wiggly line continuous without creating a printing mess. And if the rolled chord is only in the rt. hand, with a straight chord in the lt., then you play the lt. hand chord simultaneously with the last note of the arpeggiated chord, rolled from the bottom up.
However, what happens is that people play the rt. and lt. hands simultaneously because it's easier and faster that way, and in fast passages it seems that you wouldn't have enough time to roll the chord in the proper way. And the sound this way is good enough so that you can get by with doing it this way, but actually all such chords should be rolled from bottom up. Are you serious? There is a big difference between the two notations. For dramatic purposes, for articulative purposes, for color purposes, for rhythmic purposes....There is a major difference between the two notations. This idea just doesn't make any sense. How can you say one is more musical then the other. Depends on the context...a mash of sound? I may want a mash of sound...I love mashes of sound. I want that bubbly, unclear, boyant effect of rolling two chords together so I'm gonna write it differently then if I want one long, sweeping, clear rolled chord. .... ah
Chopin would have played them from bottom up. They sound more musical that way. I cannot believe the ultimate pianist would write the ultimate rolled chord study and then take the easy way out playing it.
.......I don't understand this at all he's speaking for Chopin...the etude wouldn't even make sense if the chords were rolled from bottom up. The whole point of the etude is to teach the pianist how to coordinate hand movement involving different figurations together (long stretches in the left vs. short in the right)...about hand displacement at quick tempos. the tempos marked 76 beats per minute, you would never be able to play the piece at that speed nor would you EVER be able to get the allegretto feel that Chopin wants by rolling from bottom up. This piece is about being able to play 4 against 3 in a clear way...it's about strumming the piano like a guitar. everything about the way the etude is designed indicates Chopin wants the pianist to effectively be able to roll two chords together because learning how to do that will strenghten your technique in many, many ways. Chopin knew exactly what was to be gained from this etude thats why it's written like it is. oh my God if you played it any other way the entire etude would be ruined, nothing would make sense. Of course the notation means two different things.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,154
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,154 |
The two notations are different to represent two different techniques. Both arpeggio techniques (simultaneous and continuous) are valid in different circumstances, there obviously needs to be an unambiguous way to notate each of them.
What you are is an accident of birth. What I am, I am through my own efforts. There have been a thousand princes and there will be a thousand more. There is one Beethoven.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 388
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 388 |
So in the Chopin 10/11, if there are the same number of notes in the two hands, should they be played at the same time on both hands?
prok
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 171
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 171 |
Don't think about it, just do it.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,154
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,154 |
I've never formally studied this piece myself, but I'd tend to agree with pepper. I don't think the point of this etude is to perfectly match up 3 against 4 or some other division. The arpeggios weren't meant to be played in a measured way, so I'd say pepper hit it on the head - just do it and don't worry about perfectly matching up the notes.
What you are is an accident of birth. What I am, I am through my own efforts. There have been a thousand princes and there will be a thousand more. There is one Beethoven.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 710
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 710 |
Originally posted by 8ude: I've never formally studied this piece myself, but I'd tend to agree with pepper. I don't think the point of this etude is to perfectly match up 3 against 4 or some other division. The arpeggios weren't meant to be played in a measured way, so I'd say pepper hit it on the head - just do it and don't worry about perfectly matching up the notes. no there is definently a difference if you take the time to actually give a rhythmic clarity to the rolled chords. Start so to coordinate hand movements and to get a clear sound out of the piano. It's like any high speed passage....you start slow, heck, be mathmatical about it at first. Get a very clear aural understanding of how the chord sounds and then speed it up. The level of detail and intense concentration you put into lining up your movements and your notes will show itself even at a very high speed roll. Then you allow yourself to feel it, and it will feel solid and crystal clear rather then some random guess. It's tough but that is part of the etude.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,408
Posts3,349,457
Members111,637
|
Most Online15,252 Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|