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#43993 - 08/07/06 01:00 PM Spin Cycle  
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Jolly Offline
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When does information on a subjective subject (piano) become spin?


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#43994 - 08/07/06 01:09 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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When it's presented by someone with a financial interest, and includes more than "just the facts."

#43995 - 08/07/06 01:11 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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I'd argue that it's when subjective impressions are presented as objective facts by somebody with a financial interest in the matter.


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#43996 - 08/07/06 01:21 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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Does spin totally depend on financial interests?


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#43997 - 08/07/06 01:24 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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I'd add that it may involve a selective presentation or interpretation of information to convey favorable impressions of a product in which the presenter has a financial or proprietary interest.


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#43998 - 08/07/06 03:01 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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But if a dealer here touts a piano he carries, is that spin?

Yes, he has a financial interest, but most dealers have a reason for the lines they carry, and I would assume one of those reasons is that they actually like the brand.


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#43999 - 08/07/06 03:18 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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this is like a school laugh


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
#44000 - 08/07/06 03:33 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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Spin cycle always implies to me an alterior motive- not helping someone else, but helping yourself in some way (financial or otherwise). Spin doesn't mean to me someone is lying but it does mean vested interest- and self-promoting motives. Not necessarily bad- but has the potential to be bad.

I would like to think that all salespeople have a real passion for what they sell. That's just not reality though. Money is the drive for some people...they don't care a bit about what they sell...just whether or not they actually sell.

#44001 - 08/07/06 03:38 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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Quote
Originally posted by MrsSV:
Spin cycle always implies to me an alterior motive- not helping someone else, but helping yourself in some way (financial or otherwise). Spin doesn't mean to me someone is lying but it does mean vested interest- and self-promoting motives. Not necessarily bad- but has the potential to be bad.

I would like to think that all salespeople have a real passion for what they sell. That's just not reality though. Money is the drive for some people...they don't care a bit about what they sell...just whether or not they actually sell.
Most of the really good salespeople I've run across do seem to really like their product. Maybe that is what separates the very good from the mediocre...


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#44002 - 08/07/06 03:39 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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Quote
Originally posted by apple*:
this is like a school laugh
We're trying, ma'am, we're trying...

So tell me, is there such a thing as good spin and bad spin?


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#44003 - 08/07/06 03:46 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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of course.. and who determine's where that line is between good and bad?

there are many shades of grey between black and white
perspective colors the presentation wrong or right.

-oddly, one could call the rinse cycle good spin


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
#44004 - 08/07/06 06:16 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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I'ld be inclined to say that financial interest is a motivation for `spin' rather than part of its definition.

#44005 - 08/07/06 06:48 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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The problem here is that "spin" has to have objective characteristics that one can identify otherwise calling something spin becomes itself a form of subjective spin.

Monica's approach seems to me the closest to an objective way of defining spin.

Surely a person with an interest in something (financial or otherwise) can have an opinion worthy of a respectful hearing. Del, for instance, designs pianos.

#44006 - 08/07/06 06:54 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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To me, bad spin is when the buyer has no idea there is spin.

As long as I know there is spinning...I can sort things out a little better. Spinning causes me to step back, sort things out longer...and be more informed...that is good- to me.

Personally I'd rather deal with a straight shooter than a spinner anyday. Then again, it takes some sorting out to know if you are dealing with a straight shooter.

See, I am so glad I found this forum because no matter what spin anyone "may" have- they don't have a vested interest, they cannot gain something from my future piano purchase. There is some degree of safety for me in learning here on this forum. I appreciate that so very much.

#44007 - 08/07/06 07:27 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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I think everyone so far is on point as to what spin is.

Combining Monica's,Sophial's, Basil's and P*D's definition with a few extra words---

"Spin is the act of selective presentation and manipulation of subjective impressions as objective fact, while often omitting or distorting important facts. Spin is a persuasion tactic used by some individuals who have a financial or proprietary stake in the outcome."

Not sure there is such a thing as good spin. Of course there is hope, graciousness and discretion but spin is a disrespectful act to the person on the receiving end. Thank goodness people who spin are usually easy to spot.

I will have to rely on our resident psychologist here but I wonder if spin and narcissism are highly correlated?

#44008 - 08/07/06 07:45 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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Sure, there's good spin.

Even spin can impart information, especially if the person on the receiving end is discerning.

Just because a person, or usually in our case a salesperson, puts something in its best light, doesn't necessarily mean it has no value...


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#44009 - 08/07/06 07:55 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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FTP,

That's a pretty good synthesis!

By definition, it's a manipulation tactic designed to give the spinner influence over the spinnee so... I'm inclined to agree that spin is "bad" to the extent that it is aimed at giving one person unfair advantage over another. It's not just providing information or even honest opinion, stated as such.

"con" artists are spinners par excellence! are they narcisstic too? maybe...
Sophia

Sophia

#44010 - 08/07/06 09:23 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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Quote
Originally posted by fathertopianist:
I will have to rely on our resident psychologist here but I wonder if spin and narcissism are highly correlated?
There's a ton of research on narcissism, but none that I'm aware of that has looked at the relation between narcissism and spin (here's a ph.d. thesis for somebody). However, narcissistic individuals are often very charming and have good social skills on a superficial basis, so I suspect they'd be very good at engaging in spin.

fathertopianist, I like your combined definition. I tend to get nervous whenever something is operationalized by calling on somebody's intention, but with spin I think it is almost necessary. As piano*dad pointed out, we need some way of distinguishing between spin and the positive and factual contributions of many of our dealers, techs, and designers here without calling it spin.


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#44011 - 08/07/06 09:32 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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or can spin be unconscious and unintentional? can people selectively attend to or present only information that is consistent with their biases and therefore not be aware that they are spinning?


Sophia

#44012 - 08/08/06 01:04 AM Re: Spin Cycle  
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"Spin" in the political sense is trying to take control over information and persuade it to be interpreted in a way that's favorable to the spinner. No, I don't think it can be unintentional. I think that's what distinguishes it from mere opinion.

"Mrs. Jones, these keys stick down because this piano is designed to last 100 years! Why, after 10 years of play, it's still breaking in! Just let it settle..."

--Cy--


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#44013 - 08/08/06 10:53 AM Re: Spin Cycle  
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Cy wrote:
Quote
"Spin" in the political sense is trying to take control over information and persuade it to be interpreted in a way that's favorable to the spinner.
Isn't that just a sales pitch?

So now some of us believe all salesmen are narcisstic? (Just coupling up some of the definitions and extrapolations taking place within this thread...)


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#44014 - 08/08/06 10:59 AM Re: Spin Cycle  
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Quote
Originally posted by Jolly:
So now some of us believe all salesmen are narcisstic? (Just coupling up some of the definitions and extrapolations taking place within this thread...)
Not me, and if you got that from any of my posts, you're overgeneralizing. I said there very well could be a relation between spin/salesmanship and narcissism... and any correlation less than 1.0 leaves room for exceptions. wink


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#44015 - 08/08/06 11:11 AM Re: Spin Cycle  
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There is a stereotype of a 'salesman' that at best is comical and at worst is negative. The important thing to remember is that whenever you use a stereotype you are wrong. A stereotype is a characature (sp) - often w/a negative slant. There are no individuals that represent an exaggerated average of a group. Best thing to do is to remember that people who make their livings selling are individuals first and should not be defined by their job. Whatever traits they display are due to circumstances beyond belonging to the group in which they make their living.

#44016 - 08/08/06 12:12 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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A simple definition of "spin" is probably as slippery as spin itself.

I think that it's the deceitful or manipulative nature of how information is presented that turns advocacy into spin. In terms of sales, to me spin is when the salesperson is deliberating surfacing the fears and/or hopes of the prospect in such a way as to deliberately cloud the judgement of the purchaser, rather than empowering the purchaser to make an appropriate assessment of the product.

Thinking about the issue of how we shape information to create an impression in our hearers brings up all sorts of interesting philosophical and moral issues. Issues which of course do not register as important to the masters of spin...

#44017 - 08/08/06 02:05 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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Quote
Originally posted by Jolly:
Cy wrote:
Quote
"Spin" in the political sense is trying to take control over information and persuade it to be interpreted in a way that's favorable to the spinner.
Isn't that just a sales pitch?
Well, I guess... I think there's an element of deceipt in the way I think of spin, but you're right: a sales pitch accentuates the benefits and minimizes the flaws. Maybe just a matter of degree? Even parents do it: "Oh, that's not so bad; let me put a Band-Aid on it."

Think of the clusters of "spin doctors" in the press room after an election-year debate.

--Cy--


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#44018 - 08/08/06 03:00 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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I think this has been a pretty decent thread.

But it's a thread on more than one level...it shows what can happen on a piano board with identical question(s), same facilitator, different members.

This one was locked:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/1/12260/3.html


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#44019 - 08/08/06 03:08 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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Not completely different members... and I think the reason the other thread got locked had nothing to do with your original question (which is a good one, btw, and well worth raising periodically) but because it degenerated into personal attacks, which fortunately this one has not. Yet. wink


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#44020 - 08/08/06 03:55 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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Quote
"Oh, that's not so bad; let me put a Band-Aid on it."
Perhaps when a parent says that- it's the truth (not spin), afterall, if a band-aid wouldn't help there would be a trip to the ER for stitches. Stitches are better than major surgery and so on. That's perspective, not spin IMO.

#44021 - 08/08/06 04:46 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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Quote
Originally posted by Monica Kern:
Not completely different members... and I think the reason the other thread got locked had nothing to do with your original question (which is a good one, btw, and well worth raising periodically) but because it degenerated into personal attacks, which fortunately this one has not. Yet. wink
I dunno, different moderator....but I think it does illustrate some different thinking, even among people who participated in the previous thread. Viewpoints do change...


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#44022 - 08/09/06 08:16 PM Re: Spin Cycle  
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imo, spin has a negative connotation and is avoided by using the "responsible I."

as in, "I believe that the daffy duchenstein pianos are the finest in the world, and here are the reasons why ..."

as opposed to, "the daffy duchenstein pianos are the finest in the world, and here are the reasons why..."

the first is opinion. everybody has one. we may not agree, but we should respect their right to have their opinion.

the second is a statement of fact. and if that fact is not true, then we have a problem. as in the salesman who told me, "everyone who can afford a yamaha, buys a yamaha." it is easy to prove this false -- just look around here at what people own. so if he has clearly tried to pull the wool on that one, what else is he trying to pull? wink

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