2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
53 members (clothearednincompo, Beemer, Beowulf, bobrunyan, Badger1966, Ajax69, 14 invisible), 453 guests, and 446 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Beethoven Sonata Pathetique 1st Mvmt - Tremolos
#436994 01/25/07 12:36 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 27
D
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 27
Hey guys,

I started learning the Pathetique Sonata over the summer. I learned the entire 2nd movement and the first four pages of the 1st movement. I don't take private lessons or anything and so I really don't know where to turn for help.

Anyway, I am stuck on the 1st movement at the part with the tremolos (with the crossing hands). I can play the crossed hands and mordents without any difficulty, but the tremolos KILL me. At slow speeds I play them with a 2-3-2-1 fingering, but at faster speeds this fingering only works half the time. I tried figuring out some different fingerings, but none seem to really work. For those of you that can play this piece, what fingerings do you use on the tremolos??

Thanks,
Ryan

PS - Here is an alternate fingering I came up with this afternoon (it has potential, I think):

1st set: 3-4-3-1 2-3-1-3 2-3-2-1
2nd set: 2-3-1-3 3-4-3-2 2-3-2-1
repeat 2nd... repeat 1st

The last set of tremolos (group of 3, group of 3, group of 5 + 1) I just use 2-3-2-1 and it seems to work 75% of the time. At slower speeds I can get any fingering to work 100%... Any suggestions? Thanks.

Re: Beethoven Sonata Pathetique 1st Mvmt - Tremolos
#436995 01/25/07 01:39 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 95
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 95
What measure does this start on? I can't think of any tremolos in the hand crossing part. The fingerings you are showing don't really make sense for a tremelo either. I'm thinking you are confused as to what a tremelo is.

The left hand part in the beginning of the first fast section (start of second page in most editions I've seen)is a tremelo.

Give me a measure number, and maybe we help you out.


Dan Moos
Apprentice piano tech
Re: Beethoven Sonata Pathetique 1st Mvmt - Tremolos
#436996 01/25/07 01:51 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 95
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 95
One thing about fingerings. All other things being equal, the fingering that allows the most econmical motion with the least uneccessary stretching or scrunching of fingers is the best one.

The fact that you can play a fingering slow but not fast suggests that it is just a new move that is unfamiliar in your muscle memory "library". Find a fingering that seems to make sense when played slow, practice it slow until it is easy to play (i.e., flawless without an inordinate amount concentration needed).

Do not test it out at tempo until this is achieved. At best, you will be dissapointed, and at worst, you will play it just well enough to convince yourself it is good to go, and it will be sloppy forever. Get it good slow, and you will get it fast and clean sooner.

What fingers does your book suggest? They are almost always the right way, and if you change them, be sure you have a good reason. Often a given fingering will not make sense until you see the big picture, such as setting yourself up for the next phrase, or giving a stronger finger a part that requires strength. Sometimes strange fingerings are not so strange when you realize they are meant to facilitate legato.


Dan Moos
Apprentice piano tech
Re: Beethoven Sonata Pathetique 1st Mvmt - Tremolos
#436997 01/25/07 02:16 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 245
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 245
Hanon excercise #60

Re: Beethoven Sonata Pathetique 1st Mvmt - Tremolos
#436998 01/25/07 02:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 94
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 94
Yeah, this tremolo thingy is the part that make things difficult. when I started learning this piece, I get all fed up and frustrated and did not enjoy it at all. My playing is just too monotonous, which makes things not enjoyable for me. I stopped playing it for several years.
It was just recently, I started to play again and things goes much better already. I guess you have to listen to the music more, try to feel the music. relax your hands, body,and mind. Don't speed up first. Just set a steady tempo and you'll be fine. Slowly increase the speed if you think you're ready to take it ^_~* As for fingerings, i follow what's written on the score, the rest where there are no fingerings I just play it accordingly that makes it easy for me. Well, you will have to provide the bar numbers and see whether I can suggest something for you. =)

This will take some time...Just enjoy the process and discover! hehe =D Meantime I am working with staying at a steady tempo and hope that I don't chop the piece hehe..Good Luck! ^.~*


Currently working on:
1)Schubert Impromptu Op.90-2 and 3
2)Hungarian Rhapsody No.12
3)Etude Op.10-5 and 12
4)Libestraum No.3 and Un sospiro by Liszt
New:
Chopin Ballade No.4
Field's Nocturne No.4
Mozart Sonata in C, K330

"Without Music, Life is A Journey Through a desert" -- Pat Conroy
Re: Beethoven Sonata Pathetique 1st Mvmt - Tremolos
#436999 01/25/07 03:03 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 94
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 94
Yeah, this tremolo thingy is the part that make things difficult. when I started learning this piece, I get all fed up and frustrated and did not enjoy it at all. My playing is just too monotonous, which makes things not enjoyable for me. I stopped playing it for several years.
It was just recently, I started to play again and things goes much better already. I guess you have to listen to the music more, try to feel the music. relax your hands, body,and mind. Don't speed up first. Just set a steady tempo and you'll be fine. Slowly increase the speed if you think you're ready to take it ^_~* As for fingerings, i follow what's written on the score, the rest where there are no fingerings I just play it accordingly that makes it easy for me. Well, you will have to provide the bar numbers and see whether I can suggest something for you. =)

This will take some time...Just enjoy the process and discover! hehe =D Meantime I am working with staying at a steady tempo and hope that I don't chop the piece hehe..Good Luck! ^.~*


Currently working on:
1)Schubert Impromptu Op.90-2 and 3
2)Hungarian Rhapsody No.12
3)Etude Op.10-5 and 12
4)Libestraum No.3 and Un sospiro by Liszt
New:
Chopin Ballade No.4
Field's Nocturne No.4
Mozart Sonata in C, K330

"Without Music, Life is A Journey Through a desert" -- Pat Conroy
Re: Beethoven Sonata Pathetique 1st Mvmt - Tremolos
#437000 01/25/07 05:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 27
D
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 27
Thanks for the help guys. Measure 57 is where the trills in the right hand start, and that's where I am having the problems. I thought they were a form of trill more specifically known as tremolos, but I guess a tremolo is something totally different?

Unfortunately, the copy of music I am using is a downloaded copy (music-scores) without any written fingerings. It is the only section in this piece that I can't play well up to speed. So then for the trills, what fingerings do you use? I hope my question makes a little more sense now lol. Thanks for the help!

Re: Beethoven Sonata Pathetique 1st Mvmt - Tremolos
#437001 01/25/07 09:32 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,366
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,366
Quote
Originally posted by DrumProdigy83:
Thanks for the help guys. Measure 57 is where the trills in the right hand start, and that's where I am having the problems. I thought they were a form of trill more specifically known as tremolos, but I guess a tremolo is something totally different?

Unfortunately, the copy of music I am using is a downloaded copy (music-scores) without any written fingerings. It is the only section in this piece that I can't play well up to speed. So then for the trills, what fingerings do you use? I hope my question makes a little more sense now lol. Thanks for the help!
I use: starting with the Bb going up to an A

154 3421
and continue in that matter.

BTW, how are you doing with the tremolos?(The part where the main theme gets introduced, those are tremolos in the left hand.)

brojek.


Practice makes permanent - Perfect practice makes perfect.
Re: Beethoven Sonata Pathetique 1st Mvmt - Tremolos
#437002 01/25/07 10:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 27
D
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 27
Thanks playadom - Do you use 3421 for all of the trills? I can't wait to try it out lol, but unfortunately I am a college student and don't have a piano nearby (I'll have to head over to the music dept tomorrow afternoon).

The tremolos I never had a problem with surprisingly - I've read quite a bit about other people struggling with them. I've been playing drums for about 16 years, so I am very comfortable with rhythms and pretty strict when playing them too. I use the tremolos as a 16th note grid for my right hand to play on top of, then it's just a matter of moving from octave to octave. What is tough about the tremolos is the crescendo - it gets tiring trying to gradually get louder while moving around the keyboard without fudging the rhythm at all, and then the sudden jump back down to the piano level on the C's.

The other spots in the 1st movement that have been kind of tricky are 1) the run at the end of measure 4, 2) I am ashamed to say this, but the chromatic run in measure 10, and 3) the tremolos in measure 93 seem to be a little tricky, but I haven't put much time into them at all, maybe five minutes in a 2 hour practice time frame. Actually, for the chromatic run, do you use the 3131231313123 fingering? I used to play it very smooth in the beginning at pretty quick speeds, then as time went I found myself not being able to really play it all. I have no idea why?? I can barely play it at a decent speed now without it getting choppy. Any suggestions / explanations for this??

Re: Beethoven Sonata Pathetique 1st Mvmt - Tremolos
#437003 01/25/07 10:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,366
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,366
Quote
Originally posted by DrumProdigy83:
Thanks playadom - Do you use 3421 for all of the trills? I can't wait to try it out lol, but unfortunately I am a college student and don't have a piano nearby (I'll have to head over to the music dept tomorrow afternoon).

The tremolos I never had a problem with surprisingly - I've read quite a bit about other people struggling with them. I've been playing drums for about 16 years, so I am very comfortable with rhythms and pretty strict when playing them too. I use the tremolos as a 16th note grid for my right hand to play on top of, then it's just a matter of moving from octave to octave. What is tough about the tremolos is the crescendo - it gets tiring trying to gradually get louder while moving around the keyboard without fudging the rhythm at all, and then the sudden jump back down to the piano level on the C's.

The other spots in the 1st movement that have been kind of tricky are 1) the run at the end of measure 4, 2) I am ashamed to say this, but the chromatic run in measure 10, and 3) the tremolos in measure 93 seem to be a little tricky, but I haven't put much time into them at all, maybe five minutes in a 2 hour practice time frame. Actually, for the chromatic run, do you use the 3131231313123 fingering? I used to play it very smooth in the beginning at pretty quick speeds, then as time went I found myself not being able to really play it all. I have no idea why?? I can barely play it at a decent speed now without it getting choppy. Any suggestions / explanations for this??
I use the same fingering for all of the trills.

Some other things that help:

In the 33rd and 35th measures of this section, I use the thumb for both the E natural and the D, the D and the C.

In the last two measures, after the trill I repeat the note with 121, and 132 in the next measure.

For the chromatic run, I use 5432143213214321, etc. I also have had some trouble with the crescendo.
You might have been playing it slightly incorrectly at high speeds, and extra practice will have increased the incorrect motions. Just take it slow for a bit. Switching fingerings might help.

In measure 4, I use 323432132143212124212.

One last thing, how are you with the run beginning on measure 29?
The left hand jumps there need to be crisp.

Don't know what you use, so I probably won't be of much help.

brojek.


Practice makes permanent - Perfect practice makes perfect.
Re: Beethoven Sonata Pathetique 1st Mvmt - Tremolos
#437004 01/25/07 10:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 27
D
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 27
Measure 10 - I actually read something the other day about using different fingerings on chromatic runs, but I always thought the 13131231313, etc, was the "correct" way to play them. I will try out the alternate fingering you've suggested as well, hopefully I'll have better luck.

Measure 4 - I use this fingering as well. It is just something that needs to be practiced very smoothly and evenly first, with gradual speed increases coming later. Also, I try to play the first two or three notes much more slowly as I start the run descending down the keyboard. I tend to have a light touch typically, but I've found that putting a little extra force into playing this run helps to maintain a smooth and even sound with a good amount of volume as well (ending softly).

Measure 29 - This was a pain in the @$$! Took me a while to get the fingering down, and a while longer to get it even and up to speed. I can play it quickly, smoothly and evenly about 90% of the time now. What left hand jumps are you referring to? Other than D/F on beat one, and the AAAA G-G at the end of the two runs, I don't use my left hand at all... Am I missing something?

Thanks for your help btw, I have been googling for this information for at least the last 2 weeks with no luck. I tried getting some help from the music dept, but they seem to keep blowing me off because I'm not a music major. So yea, thanks!

Re: Beethoven Sonata Pathetique 1st Mvmt - Tremolos
#437005 01/25/07 10:56 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,366
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,366
Quote
Originally posted by DrumProdigy83:

Measure 29 - This was a pain in the @$$! Took me a while to get the fingering down, and a while longer to get it even and up to speed. I can play it quickly, smoothly and evenly about 90% of the time now. What left hand jumps are you referring to? Other than D/F on beat one, and the AAAA G-G at the end of the two runs, I don't use my left hand at all... Am I missing something?

Thanks for your help btw, I have been googling for this information for at least the last 2 weeks with no luck. I tried getting some help from the music dept, but they seem to keep blowing me off because I'm not a music major. So yea, thanks!
You're welcome!

I was referring to the octave g's to the b natural and d. Doesn't seem to be much of a problem.


brojek.


Practice makes permanent - Perfect practice makes perfect.
Re: Beethoven Sonata Pathetique 1st Mvmt - Tremolos
#437006 01/26/07 01:17 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 295
H
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
H
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 295
My teacher gave me a great tip on playing the tremelos in the 1st movement of Pathetique. She told me to think of Queen Elizabeth and the way she "waves" to the crowd -- you know how she uses that wrist action with her hand spread?

I tried it (with the hand on the keyboard instead of up in the air)

Works like a charm -- and makes me silently laugh -- which has the added benefit of relaxing me!

Virginia (from Virginia)

Re: Beethoven Sonata Pathetique 1st Mvmt - Tremolos
#437007 01/26/07 07:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 27
D
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 27
Virginia - That is not a bad way to think about it lol! I try to play the tremolos like I am trying to turn a doorknob that is locked. This seems to help me play a little more legato and fluid with slightly better wrist movement. Queen Elizabeth's hand wave is very similiar to that lol.

Playadom - I was able to get to a practice room today to try out the new fingerings... For the most part they worked very well, though I did make a few changes.

Measure 10 - The fingering for the chromatic scale you suggested worked VERY well, except I changed the pattern just slightly: 5432143213214321321432123132151 Pretty much the same thing, but this fingering was a little easier for me. I can play it at about 1/2 the speed it should be at, but I know with some more practice I will be able to get the speed up to par (it is definitely smoother than the previous fingering I was using).

Measure 29 - I don't think you wrote down a fingering for this, but here is what I use (you confused me when you mentioned the left hand jumps at this part): 532132123212532 That is all played by the right hand (left hand plays 5151 at the end of the run).

Measure 57 - Trills: 3421-2313-3421 I found it impossible to play 3421 starting on the F, it was just a very awkward hand position. 2313 works better, though I tend not to be able to get off the F quick enough when playing up to speed, so the trill sort of doesn't come out right. 3421 works well otherwise, just will take a little getting used to - the clarity was immediately improved because my fingers are very quick to get off the note (they don't linger). However, the last set of runs starting at measure 81 felt a little more awkward than the other trills using 3421, though I think that with practice this fingering should work pretty well.

I finished the tremolos(?) section (measures 89-100), though I still need to bring it up to speed. I've never understood how Lizst could practice 10 hours per day (like he says) - I practice 3-4 hours straight and have to stop because my back just can't take it. I would love to practice 10 hours, but I'd need a back replacement within a few weeks / months lol. BTW, how long did it take you guys to learn the 1st movement of this piece? How long had you been playing piano by the time you started learning this piece?


Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Our October 2020 Free Piano Newsletter is Here!
---------------------
3,000,000+!
------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
New Topics - Multiple Forums
New DP Buyer Needs Help :-)
by Badger1966 - 10/21/20 09:12 AM
Kawai es920 - record onto Android Smartphone
by big-vern - 10/21/20 04:51 AM
MP11SE in stock at bhphoto.com
by mivaldes - 10/20/20 10:35 PM
most common non ET temperaments in 2020?
by MartF - 10/20/20 08:56 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics202,334
Posts3,015,668
Members98,964
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4