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Ave Maria tempo #434879
11/04/08 10:29 AM
11/04/08 10:29 AM
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ClassicalMan Offline OP
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This concerns the arrangement of Franz Shubert's Ave Maria. The RH takes the melody typically sung by a vocalist while the LH plays the entire bass single note and 3rd note groups played by both hands. Has anyone every played Ave Maria in this manner? The tempo is lento. What is the metronome markings for lento? One reference said lento is in the range of 52-108. Any tips for mastering this piece?


The thought of eternal efflorescence of music is a comforting one, and comes like a messenger of peace in the midst of universal disturbance--Roman Rolland, Musicians of Former Days

Vast untapped resources lie within.
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Re: Ave Maria tempo #434880
11/04/08 10:45 AM
11/04/08 10:45 AM
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I'm surprised:
1. Why did you post a new thread instead of continuing discussion on a prior one?

2. Lento is not a set of numbers. It is a direction meaning slow. That is, the entire musical flow will be slow, not individual notes.


Amateur Pianist, Scriabin Enthusiast, and Octave Demon
Re: Ave Maria tempo #434881
11/04/08 11:03 AM
11/04/08 11:03 AM
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ClassicalMan :

I agree with both comments made by Fleeting Visions. This is now the third thread that you have started about the particular arrangement you have of Schubert's "Ave Maria." Why not keep all your questions and concerns in one thread? Given our attempts to answer your previous questions on this arrangement, I would think that no one else regularly posting here has the Amsco publication in which this arrangement appears.

Secondly, any source that says that Lento falls within a range of numbers is a highly unreliable source. Lento, or any other tempo designation is relative, and is based on the unit of measurement or note-values of the piece in question.

What leads many people astray is a look at some metronomes where, against the scale of numbers is printed the series of tempo markings from Largo to Prestissimo. Some people therefor think that if Andante falls between MM=76 and MM=108 on their metronome, then they must play the piece within that range, regardless of whether the unit of measurement is an eighth-note, quarter-note, half-note, etc., etc. That makes no sense until one determines what the unit of measurement is.

To get to your question, before I would suggest an appropriate tempo, I would have to know how this transcription is notated. The original Schubert "Ave Maria" is in 4/4 time, marked sehr langsam (very slowly) with the accompaniment in sextolets. If that is the notation in your transcription, I would suggest somewhere around MM=63 to the eighth-note. Your earlier comment that the accompaniment is in triplets and not sextolets leads me to believe that this arrangement might be transcribed in notation different from the original. It might add up to the same thing as far as overall tempo is concerned, but until the exact rhythmic pattern of this transcription is known, you will have to go with my suggestion based on the original.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: Ave Maria tempo #434882
11/04/08 11:23 AM
11/04/08 11:23 AM
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ClassicalMan Offline OP
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I have come to the realization that musicians come in all shapes forms and sizes. Contrary to my previous beliefs that musicians are very sensitive emotional and caring people, I now realize that some are very RUDE. Despite the fact they are experts at what they do, some are very quirky.

That being said, I have developed a certain mental poise and sensitivity to deal with quirky folk. We can't expect all musicians to think and behave like we do. I have played all my life in the jazz and improvisational realm. Being satisfied with what I've done there, I came here to sharpen my reading skills as my reading has been minimal. Since begining this quest I have mastered several classical pieces that I never dreamed I would.

I'm merely asking questions to which books and the Internet does not make clear. There is absolutely no reason for any of us to be rude simply because we may know more or are more experienced. I know many musicians that are quited talented and gifted if you please but their manners have prohibited them from aspiring to great heights.

That being said, I did not want to resurect the previous posts with the rude remarks. Besides I had a compltely different question.


The thought of eternal efflorescence of music is a comforting one, and comes like a messenger of peace in the midst of universal disturbance--Roman Rolland, Musicians of Former Days

Vast untapped resources lie within.
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Re: Ave Maria tempo #434883
11/04/08 11:37 AM
11/04/08 11:37 AM
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i would sing it the way you and your singer thinks it should sound, and set the metronome accordingly. I practice slowly. If accompanying a good singer, I follow him or her.


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
Re: Ave Maria tempo #434884
11/04/08 12:28 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by ClassicalMan:
I have come to the realization that musicians come in all shapes forms and sizes. Contrary to my previous beliefs that musicians are very sensitive emotional and caring people, I now realize that some are very RUDE. Despite the fact they are experts at what they do, some are very quirky.

That being said, I have developed a certain mental poise and sensitivity to deal with quirky folk. We can't expect all musicians to think and behave like we do. I have played all my life in the jazz and improvisational realm. Being satisfied with what I've done there, I came here to sharpen my reading skills as my reading has been minimal. Since begining this quest I have mastered several classical pieces that I never dreamed I would.

I'm merely asking questions to which books and the Internet does not make clear. There is absolutely no reason for any of us to be rude simply because we may know more or are more experienced. I know many musicians that are quited talented and gifted if you please but their manners have prohibited them from aspiring to great heights.

That being said, I did not want to resurect the previous posts with the rude remarks. Besides I had a compltely different question.
ClassicalMan,

I honestly don't believe anyone meant to be rude. While the Pianist Corner is generally known for a more blunt and less genteel atmosphere than, say, the Adult Beginners Forum, intentional rudeness can be guaranteed to be far more pointed than anything in this thread. wink

Consider that while your question this time around is different, both of the concurrent previous threads asked the same thing IIRC. That caused some frustration, and the memory of it lingers.

I'm certain that people want to help you here, and I'm sorry if that didn't quite come across. Please don't be discouraged from asking questions! Unfortunately, in this case, your inquiry as to tempo in beats per minute can't be answered without knowing the note values and groupings in the arrangement you're using.

Steven

Re: Ave Maria tempo #434885
11/04/08 12:39 PM
11/04/08 12:39 PM
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I would play it no slower than the average singers can maintain the lines. Since this is a song arrangement, it must be played as if there were a singer singing the lines. Listen to recordings of great singers doing this piece and you will get an idea of an ideal tempo.


private piano/voice teacher FT

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Re: Ave Maria tempo #434886
11/04/08 01:53 PM
11/04/08 01:53 PM
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The version I play, the left hand and right hand play both the melody and accompaniment part.

About tempo, when you play a transcription, it's more difficult than playing for a singer because you cannot sustain a note (of the melody) as long as a singer can sing. But you shouldn't play the piece too fast either because that would sound like you are racing to reach the end. So, it's up to you to find your own tempo. The best way is to record yourself, then listen to your recording.

Most people play the transcription of Schubert's Ave Maria slightly faster than what you would hear from a singer.

Re: Ave Maria tempo #434887
11/04/08 01:53 PM
11/04/08 01:53 PM
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ClassicalMan Offline OP
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Quote
Originally posted by sotto voce:
Quote
Originally posted by ClassicalMan:
[b] I have come to the realization that musicians come in all shapes forms and sizes. Contrary to my previous beliefs that musicians are very sensitive emotional and caring people, I now realize that some are very RUDE. Despite the fact they are experts at what they do, some are very quirky.

That being said, I have developed a certain mental poise and sensitivity to deal with quirky folk. We can't expect all musicians to think and behave like we do. I have played all my life in the jazz and improvisational realm. Being satisfied with what I've done there, I came here to sharpen my reading skills as my reading has been minimal. Since begining this quest I have mastered several classical pieces that I never dreamed I would.

I'm merely asking questions to which books and the Internet does not make clear. There is absolutely no reason for any of us to be rude simply because we may know more or are more experienced. I know many musicians that are quited talented and gifted if you please but their manners have prohibited them from aspiring to great heights.

That being said, I did not want to resurect the previous posts with the rude remarks. Besides I had a compltely different question.
ClassicalMan,

I honestly don't believe anyone meant to be rude. While the Pianist Corner is generally known for a more blunt and less genteel atmosphere than, say, the Adult Beginners Forum, intentional rudeness can be guaranteed to be far more pointed than anything in this thread. wink

Consider that while your question this time around is different, both of the concurrent previous threads asked the same thing IIRC. That caused some frustration, and the memory of it lingers.

I'm certain that people want to help you here, and I'm sorry if that didn't quite come across. Please don't be discouraged from asking questions! Unfortunately, in this case, your inquiry as to tempo in beats per minute can't be answered without knowing the note values and groupings in the arrangement you're using.

Steven [/b]
Steven,
Now that's getting somewhere. The note values in the introduction portion preceding the "singers melody" are LH:8th's followed by 16ths both in the single note and 3rd note groupings.

I think questions can be answered without hurting feelings or displaying resentments. It's really not worth it. When we don't know something and someone else does not, it's easy to think the person who does not know is foolish merely because they process differently.


The thought of eternal efflorescence of music is a comforting one, and comes like a messenger of peace in the midst of universal disturbance--Roman Rolland, Musicians of Former Days

Vast untapped resources lie within.
Re: Ave Maria tempo #434888
11/04/08 02:41 PM
11/04/08 02:41 PM
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ClassicalMan,

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words:

[Linked Image]

This is the original version for piano and voice by Schubert. Assuming that your arrangement notates the figuration in the same rhythmic divisions—an eighth note on the beat followed by sextuplet sixteenth-notes—I suggest a MM setting of approximately 60 per eighth note.

I hope we're on the same page now. wink

Steven

Re: Ave Maria tempo #434889
11/04/08 05:41 PM
11/04/08 05:41 PM
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Fleeting Visions Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by ClassicalMan:
I have come to the realization that musicians come in all shapes forms and sizes. Contrary to my previous beliefs that musicians are very sensitive emotional and caring people, I now realize that some are very RUDE. Despite the fact they are experts at what they do, some are very quirky.

That being said, I have developed a certain mental poise and sensitivity to deal with quirky folk. We can't expect all musicians to think and behave like we do. I have played all my life in the jazz and improvisational realm. Being satisfied with what I've done there, I came here to sharpen my reading skills as my reading has been minimal. Since begining this quest I have mastered several classical pieces that I never dreamed I would.

I'm merely asking questions to which books and the Internet does not make clear. There is absolutely no reason for any of us to be rude simply because we may know more or are more experienced. I know many musicians that are quited talented and gifted if you please but their manners have prohibited them from aspiring to great heights.

That being said, I did not want to resurect the previous posts with the rude remarks. Besides I had a compltely different question.
I see no cause for your typecasted character judgements of rudeness, insensitivity, and cold unsentimentality. Furthermore, you yourself claim poise and sensitivity for dealing with us "quirky" personages, as if we are some barbaric tribe or incomprehensibly alien race that you, being morally and ethically superior, have descended below all things to reach us fallen spirits.

My responses were antiseptic, if you will. Quick and clean, devoid of honey, padding, and condescension. They may have come across as curt, or impersonal. My aim was not to shame, insult, or drive you away. Rather, I have been trying to explain to you the level of clarity, standard of grammar, and attention to detail that a fairly formal forum such as this tends to require.

For example, in spite of editing your original post, you have failed to correct the spelling of the composer, something that would hardly take much effort. This is painful.

Best regards,

Daniel


Amateur Pianist, Scriabin Enthusiast, and Octave Demon
Re: Ave Maria tempo #434890
11/04/08 08:00 PM
11/04/08 08:00 PM
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ClassicalMan Offline OP
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Steven, thanks for sharing! My version's in key of C and written with 16ths instead of 8ths for the single bass note. The editor transferred both the treble and bass clefs to the bass clef. Unlike the original verion which you posted, the left hand is totally in 16ths except for the introduction and ending. Furthermore, the LH after the introduction is void of rests i.e. constant 16ths. This section presents the greatest challenge since the performer must avoid any lapse in time between the single note and 3rd note groupings. The introduction is played with both hands i.e. single note in LH and 3rd note groupings in LH. The ending is similiar (quite easy to play). Based on your advice. I'll apply 2 16ths per 8th note which sounds reasonable, play it slowly as if they are quarter notes then gradually build to the 60 MM. I'll also keep in mind the right hand is written for a singer, hence it shouldn't be so mechanical. My piano coach made it seem so easy. With time I'll master it.

I believe my comments are quite evident!


The thought of eternal efflorescence of music is a comforting one, and comes like a messenger of peace in the midst of universal disturbance--Roman Rolland, Musicians of Former Days

Vast untapped resources lie within.
Re: Ave Maria tempo #434891
11/04/08 09:24 PM
11/04/08 09:24 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by ClassicalMan:

I know many musicians that are quited talented and gifted if you please but their manners have prohibited them from aspiring to great heights.

I believe my comments are quite evident!
You keep using words that don't mean what you think they mean. If I didn't know better, I'd swear you weren't an anglophone.


Amateur Pianist, Scriabin Enthusiast, and Octave Demon
Re: Ave Maria tempo #434892
11/04/08 09:56 PM
11/04/08 09:56 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by ClassicalMan:
Based on your advice. I'll apply 2 16ths per 8th note which sounds reasonable, play it slowly as if they are quarter notes then gradually build to the 60 MM.
But, assuming that the sixteenth notes are in triplets in your arrangement (as in the original), there will three of them per eighth note.

Steven

Re: Ave Maria tempo #434893
11/06/08 10:10 AM
11/06/08 10:10 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by ClassicalMan:
One reference said lento is in the range of 52-108.
???!!

Re: Ave Maria tempo #434894
11/06/08 10:32 AM
11/06/08 10:32 AM
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Listen to Perry Como's version..and time your speed to that..Mr Como had a well known hit with it and thats the timing/speed at which most people remember it being sung..

Re: Ave Maria tempo #434895
11/06/08 11:08 AM
11/06/08 11:08 AM
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Fans of Law & Order: Criminal Intent may recall it sung nicely by a boy soprano, too, in "Happy Family" (Season 3, Episode 9).

Steven

Re: Ave Maria tempo #434896
11/06/08 11:29 AM
11/06/08 11:29 AM
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Why dont you listen to some great recordings of this lied - Dietrich F-D/ Gerald Moore ; Barbara Bonney/Geoffrey Parsons; the Hyperion recordings with Graham Johnson - these are all great interpretations of 'Ellen's Gesang 3' (which is it's actual title, not 'Ave Maria').


"There are so many mornings that have not yet dawned." -- Rg Veda
Re: Ave Maria tempo #434897
11/13/08 07:58 PM
11/13/08 07:58 PM
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Ok...guys, here's an even bigger picture that helps to enlighten this particular version in key of C. I'm not accustomed to playing so much with my left hand.(Note the transfer of the entire piece for both hands to the left hand leaving the R.H. to play the vocal part).
Therfore, the piece is taking a while to learn. In addition, there are quite a few "2 against 3 parts". The greatest challenge is keeping the left hand constant while playing the R.H. My coach plays it as written with great ease. Not the presence of the single bass note in 16ths, not 8ths!
[Linked Image]


The thought of eternal efflorescence of music is a comforting one, and comes like a messenger of peace in the midst of universal disturbance--Roman Rolland, Musicians of Former Days

Vast untapped resources lie within.
Re: Ave Maria tempo #434898
11/13/08 08:18 PM
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Hi again, ClassicalMan,

The most important thing to know is that is that the metric structure of the figuration is the same as in the original, i.e., there are six sixteenth notes per quarter note (and three sixteenth notes per eighth note).

That means that the recommendations Bruce and I already gave you—approximately 60 beats per minute per eighth note—are still valid.

I'm glad you were able to get an image uploaded. FYI, if you resize a large picture to be a smaller width before uploading it, it will fit onto a web page in a size that can be completely visible without horizontal scrolling. Oversized pictures also have the unfortunate consequence of causing all text on the page to wrap to a new, super-long line length that disappears off the right size of most people's monitors unless they scroll horizontally to view it.

Steven

Re: Ave Maria tempo #434899
11/16/08 11:14 PM
11/16/08 11:14 PM
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sotto, did you change something?


The thought of eternal efflorescence of music is a comforting one, and comes like a messenger of peace in the midst of universal disturbance--Roman Rolland, Musicians of Former Days

Vast untapped resources lie within.
Re: Ave Maria tempo #434900
11/19/08 11:28 AM
11/19/08 11:28 AM
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Sotto,

1. 60 bpm per eigth note seem very fast for the solo piano version. I listened to a few performances of the piece and it's not that fast. The "60 bpm" is for the vocalist version.

2. Do you pay strict attention to the 2 against 3 parts that the melody or vocal line plays against the left hand part?


The thought of eternal efflorescence of music is a comforting one, and comes like a messenger of peace in the midst of universal disturbance--Roman Rolland, Musicians of Former Days

Vast untapped resources lie within.
Re: Ave Maria tempo #434901
11/19/08 02:28 PM
11/19/08 02:28 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by ClassicalMan:
Sotto,

1. 60 bpm per eigth note seem very fast for the solo piano version. I listened to a few performances of the piece and it's not that fast. The "60 bpm" is for the vocalist version.

2. Do you pay strict attention to the 2 against 3 parts that the melody or vocal line plays against the left hand part?
CM:

I tried your version at the piano, and I think you could probably slow it down to about 48 bpm per eighth-note, which seems fine to me, for the piano solo version you have. Leslie Howard plays the Liszt transcription of this at about 48 = eighth-note. This would be the equivalent of one group of triplet sixteenth-notes per metronome beat. I can't imagine it much slower than that without dragging.

Yes, it's important to observe the two against three rhythm.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: Ave Maria tempo #434902
11/19/08 05:17 PM
11/19/08 05:17 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Fleeting Visions:
You keep using words that don't mean what you think they mean. If I didn't know better, I'd swear you weren't an anglophone.
Daniel - one could interpret that two ways, both of which seem rather dubious... frown

Re: Ave Maria tempo #434903
11/23/08 11:12 PM
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BruceD, sounds like a plan!


The thought of eternal efflorescence of music is a comforting one, and comes like a messenger of peace in the midst of universal disturbance--Roman Rolland, Musicians of Former Days

Vast untapped resources lie within.
Re: Ave Maria tempo #434904
12/02/08 08:20 PM
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I just about have the piece totally memorized!


The thought of eternal efflorescence of music is a comforting one, and comes like a messenger of peace in the midst of universal disturbance--Roman Rolland, Musicians of Former Days

Vast untapped resources lie within.
Re: Ave Maria tempo #434905
12/23/08 02:02 PM
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Here's the best I can do with this piece


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI3ikbJI298


The thought of eternal efflorescence of music is a comforting one, and comes like a messenger of peace in the midst of universal disturbance--Roman Rolland, Musicians of Former Days

Vast untapped resources lie within.

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