Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
What's Hot!!
Our December 2018 Piano Newsletter Is Here!
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


Who's Online Now
129 registered members (90125, AnnInMiami, anotherscott, AAC127, AndyP, ando, BarryR, Arcflash, baudelairepianist, anncarley, 31 invisible), 1,691 guests, and 10 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432548
01/11/09 06:27 PM
01/11/09 06:27 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
-Frycek Offline OP
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline OP
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
I thought this was an interesting image, two postmortem hand casts. Chopin's is on the left, Beethoven's on the right. Quite a contrast.

[Linked Image]


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items
Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432549
01/11/09 06:39 PM
01/11/09 06:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 188
Norway
Anders39 Offline
Full Member
Anders39  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 188
Norway
Chopin really had the "piano hand". It looks like he played more than beethoven.

Stupid comment, I know...


"Silence is music too"
Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432550
01/11/09 07:00 PM
01/11/09 07:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,886
New York
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Andromaque  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,886
New York
Beethoven's is the more beautiful. Hands can be awfully ..interesting.
Thanks for posting them!

Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432551
01/11/09 07:42 PM
01/11/09 07:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
S
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member
sotto voce  Offline
6000 Post Club Member
S

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. (I definitely don't find Beethoven's the more attractive one.)

Steven

Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432552
01/11/09 07:45 PM
01/11/09 07:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 589
Los Angeles
akonow Offline
500 Post Club Member
akonow  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 589
Los Angeles
Chopin's hand looks rather veiny I think. wink


Bach - WTC I in C major & C minor (BWV 846-847)
Mozart - Sonata K 282
Chopin - Polonaises Op 26
Schumann - Fantasiestücke Op 12
Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432553
01/11/09 08:18 PM
01/11/09 08:18 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
-Frycek Offline OP
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline OP
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
Quote
Originally posted by akonow:
Chopin's hand looks rather veiny I think. wink
Chopin was severely emaciated, and probably dehydrated as well by the time he died. He probably weighed about 85 pounds.


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432554
01/11/09 09:30 PM
01/11/09 09:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 589
Los Angeles
akonow Offline
500 Post Club Member
akonow  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 589
Los Angeles
Quote
Originally posted by -Frycek:
Quote
Originally posted by akonow:
[b] Chopin's hand looks rather veiny I think. wink
Chopin was severely emaciated, and probably dehydrated as well by the time he died. He probably weighed about 85 pounds. [/b]
I didn't mean it as a criticism; it was merely an observation. Sorry, Chopin. smile


Bach - WTC I in C major & C minor (BWV 846-847)
Mozart - Sonata K 282
Chopin - Polonaises Op 26
Schumann - Fantasiestücke Op 12
Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432555
01/11/09 09:51 PM
01/11/09 09:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,485
Albany, NY, USA
Ridicolosamente Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ridicolosamente  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,485
Albany, NY, USA
After thinking that both their hands were pretty ugly, I took a close look at mine, and I realize mine's right down there...

frown


Currently working on:
-Poulenc Trois pièces
-Liszt Harmonies du Soir
-Bach/Brahms Chaconne for Left Hand
Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432556
01/12/09 04:19 AM
01/12/09 04:19 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 349
Los Angeles
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member
Deus ex Pianoforte  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 349
Los Angeles
I want plaster hand-casts of these composers...like David's teacher had of Rachmaninoff's in "Shine".

Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432557
01/12/09 04:23 AM
01/12/09 04:23 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
-Frycek Offline OP
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline OP
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
Quote
Originally posted by Deus ex Pianoforte:
I want plaster hand-casts of these composers...like David's teacher had of Rachmaninoff's in "Shine".
The only place I've seen hand casts (and the death mask) of Chopin is on ebay. Someone makes them and they show up from time to time. I've never seen on of Beethoven. There is also a life hand cast of Chopin's hand when he was about 26 or so. Not veiny, very beautiful.


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432558
01/12/09 05:59 AM
01/12/09 05:59 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 88
TempoPrimo Offline
Full Member
TempoPrimo  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 88
Chopin's hand looks a bit like Gollum's. Makes me feel sorry for him.

Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432559
01/12/09 06:27 AM
01/12/09 06:27 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
-Frycek Offline OP
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline OP
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
The life cast of Chopin's hand when he was 26.
[Linked Image]

Liszt's hand - old age - don't know whether this was postmortem or not. This is what mine looks like. Big peasant knuckles. wink
[Linked Image]


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432560
01/12/09 09:38 AM
01/12/09 09:38 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 924
Seattle, WA
M
MarkH Offline
500 Post Club Member
MarkH  Offline
500 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 924
Seattle, WA
Frycek, I'm pretty sure you mixed up the labeling on Chopin vs. Beethoven. I can't find any Beethoven hand casts on a google image search, but comparing the life cast of Chopin's hand with the original two, it's clearly much more similar to the hand on the right. Additionally, contemporary accounts of both composers describe Beethoven's short stubby fingers and Chopin's spidery slender fingers.

Again for reference (Beethoven on the left, Chopin on the right I think):
[Linked Image]

Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432561
01/12/09 09:50 AM
01/12/09 09:50 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
S
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member
sotto voce  Offline
6000 Post Club Member
S

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Mark, I've seen Chopin's hands depicted many times. His is definitely the one on the left.

Steven

Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432562
01/12/09 10:09 AM
01/12/09 10:09 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
-Frycek Offline OP
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline OP
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
And Beethoven's hand is definitely the one on the right. There also exists a postmortem portrait of Beethoven's hands which looks very much like the cast. Beethoven's short stubby fingers are a myth.


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432563
01/12/09 10:35 AM
01/12/09 10:35 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 924
Seattle, WA
M
MarkH Offline
500 Post Club Member
MarkH  Offline
500 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 924
Seattle, WA
Really! Please forgive my insistence, I'm just being my scientist self comparing the available data with your statements. All of the following casts claim to be Chopin's hand:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

and http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Cast_of_Chopin%27s_hand.JPG which is too large to fit on this page.

The wrist width to palm width of all these pics seems more similar to the above hand on the right (although, to be fair, it would be difficult to say they all are casts of the same hand without already knowing it).

Frycek, do you have a file of the Beethoven postmortem hand sketch?

Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432564
01/12/09 10:47 AM
01/12/09 10:47 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
S
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member
sotto voce  Offline
6000 Post Club Member
S

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Mark, I can't understand it! It's like we're looking at different things.

To me, the hand in the pictures you've provided all look just like the hand on the left in Frycek's OP—so much so that I can hardly believe that anyone could think otherwise. To my eyes, they all have a consistent appearance and look nothing at all like the cast purported to be Beethoven's hand.

I'm perplexed. While I'm convinced you're serious, part of me wants to think that you must be joking.

confused

Steven

Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432565
01/12/09 11:03 AM
01/12/09 11:03 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
-Frycek Offline OP
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline OP
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
Beethoven\'s Hands Postmortem sketch

I'm pretty perplexed as well. There is no doubt whatsoever about the Chopin hand cast. It's been duplicated and documented ad infinitum. I have one myself. I'd have more doubts about the one of Beethoven if either.


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432566
01/12/09 02:40 PM
01/12/09 02:40 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 420
australia
M
mmmmaestro007 Offline
Full Member
mmmmaestro007  Offline
Full Member
M

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 420
australia
by all accounts L was as clumsy as - struggled with a razor and even to dress himself- he was the proverbial bull in a china shop - but when at the piano he was in perfect poise and the movement of his hands was poetry in motion


"musical training is a more potent instrument than any other because rhythym and harmony find their way into the inner places of the soul" -Plato
Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432567
01/12/09 02:52 PM
01/12/09 02:52 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keyboardklutz  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
The bronze Mark H posted is the famous postmortem hand cast.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432568
01/12/09 03:25 PM
01/12/09 03:25 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,775
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline
Gold Subscriber

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,775
Victoria, BC
Quote
Originally posted by -Frycek:
Beethoven\'s Hands Postmortem sketch

If you compare the above link with the original post, the shape of the fingernails should give evidence that, in the OP, left is Chopin, and the right is Beethoven - or so it seems, to me.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432569
01/14/09 08:37 PM
01/14/09 08:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 271
Greenport, New York
salzdt Offline
Full Member
salzdt  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 271
Greenport, New York
In one of the parks in Warsau,Poland, there is a large bronze hand statue that depicts the hand of Chopin. I have a photo of it, I will try to post it, if I can remember how to post photos.
Dot


[Linked Image]
Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432570
01/14/09 11:42 PM
01/14/09 11:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,187
C
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member
charleslang  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,187
The main thing I notice is how the thumb joint juts way out on all the Chopin casts, and that joint is pretty close to the line of uppermost knuckles. This looks to me more like the hand on the left by far.


charlessamuellang.com
Semi-pro pianist and piano technician
Tuesdays 5-8:30 at Vince's West Sacramento, California
Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432571
01/15/09 02:13 AM
01/15/09 02:13 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 924
Seattle, WA
M
MarkH Offline
500 Post Club Member
MarkH  Offline
500 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 924
Seattle, WA
OK, the points you all bring up are more convincing. It makes me curious though where the "Beethoven has stubby fingers" myth came from.

Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432572
01/15/09 07:07 AM
01/15/09 07:07 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
-Frycek Offline OP
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline OP
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
Quote
Originally posted by MarkH:
OK, the points you all bring up are more convincing. It makes me curious though where the "Beethoven has stubby fingers" myth came from.
Anecdotal accounts so like to emphasise the "peasant," "rough," "natural, "independent", "uncouth" "noble savage" aspects of Beethoven, quietly forgetting he added the aristocratic "von" to his name himself. The stubby "peasant" fingers myth fits right in.


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432573
01/15/09 08:52 AM
01/15/09 08:52 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
S
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member
sotto voce  Offline
6000 Post Club Member
S

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Quote
Originally posted by MarkH:
OK, the points you all bring up are more convincing. It makes me curious though where the "Beethoven has stubby fingers" myth came from.
Maybe someone saw a depiction in which they looked short and stubby. It occurred to me that one would have a very different impression of Liszt's hands based on the "old age" photo that Frycek posted than from this picture just a few decades before:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/2/19735.html

Steven

Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432574
01/15/09 09:22 AM
01/15/09 09:22 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,983
boston north
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member
lilylady  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,983
boston north
Quote
Originally posted by MarkH:
OK, the points you all bring up are more convincing. It makes me curious though where the "Beethoven has stubby fingers" myth came from.
I think it might have come from 'Beethoven was short and stubby'.

But then, are we sure of that?

whome

(oops, I missed Frycek's last post - that too!)


"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."
Re: Chopin's and Beethoven's Hands side by side #432575
01/15/09 09:52 AM
01/15/09 09:52 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
-Frycek Offline OP
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline OP
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
Quote
Originally posted by lilylady:
Quote
Originally posted by MarkH:
[b] OK, the points you all bring up are more convincing. It makes me curious though where the "Beethoven has stubby fingers" myth came from.
I think it might have come from 'Beethoven was short and stubby'.

But then, are we sure of that?

whome

(oops, I missed Frycek's last post - that too!) [/b]
I've gotten the impression that Beethoven was short but burly.


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Shop Our Online Store!
Shop Our Store Online
Shop PianoSupplies.com

Did you know Piano World has an online store, and that it's loaded with goodies pianists and music lovers want?
Check it out and place your order.

Special Purchase!
Keyboard and Roses Piano Bench Cushion Keyboard & Roses 14"x30" piano bench cushions Regularly sold for $79 to $100, now only $39. (while supplies last)

(ad)
Sweetwater - Keyboards
Sweetwater
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Thoughts on Casio PX-330 vs. PX-160?
by Arcflash. 12/16/18 05:36 PM
Keyboard and Climate Change?
by malkin. 12/16/18 05:05 PM
What are scales in "long form?"
by Tyrone Slothrop. 12/16/18 03:51 PM
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Petrof
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics188,948
Posts2,772,022
Members91,783
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Please Support Our Advertisers
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

PianoTeq Petrof
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2