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Re: Legacies of Chopin and Liszt #430654
06/10/07 11:41 AM
06/10/07 11:41 AM
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Bassio Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by sophial:
Liszt's F minor Transcendental Etude was thought to be similar to Chopin's Op 10 F minor but here's the kicker:
" It is on precisely such occasions that we must exercise the most caution if we wish to avoid becoming ensnared in a historical trap." He goes on to note that the F Minor TE of Liszt comes out of the version Liszt composed when he was 15, long before he ever heard a note of Chopin's. He concludes: "This topic of influence may be a paradise for historians, but it is full of pitfalls for those who do not know their Liszt in toto."
Interesting, Which etude numbers are these? (of Liszt and Chopin)

Quote

Liszt was a slow starter. I feel that Chopin opened a door and Liszt went through it.
Sorry maryrose but I don't think Liszt was a slow starter. At the age of 13, he composed a set of etudes ( I assume even before Chopin's composing his).

These etudes today are one of the most played etudes in the repertoire (although Chopin's etudes are the most played, hands down wink ), these are called the Transcendental etudes.

Not only that, but also do not forget that 'poor' Liszt noticed that no one plays his ultra-difficult etudes .. so he simplified them later on to the version poor 'mortals' like us today play.

So I won't call him a slow starter. wink

On the other hand, one has to remember also that (warning: [Linked Image]) Chopin's first compositions were somewhat under par. Let us not forget Sonata No.1, Fugue[1], some variations etc .. which are never played or recorded today. wink

Enough of this post. smokin

-----------
[1] BTW I *somehow* like the fugue, but I confess that it is somewhat under the level of Chopin's genius.

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Re: Legacies of Chopin and Liszt #430655
06/10/07 11:44 AM
06/10/07 11:44 AM
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Bassio Offline
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About Liszt advancing music .. Bagatelle sans tonalite

What do you think? Any info about this piece?

If this was 'sans tonalite', I wished that pieces of today that are 'sans tonalite' are like this one.

What would Liszt think of Schoenberg and his friends? I don't know.

Re: Legacies of Chopin and Liszt #430656
06/10/07 11:46 AM
06/10/07 11:46 AM
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John Citron Offline
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We as musicians and pianists are the result of their legacies. Chopin really brought forward the opera buffo singing lyrically over a steady bass.

Liszt, and the other later generations and contemporaries, took this even more and brought with it the virtuostic playing that was coming about at the time. Liszt was at the pinnacle of the virtuosos and outshined Gottschalk, Heinrich Herz and many others in the day. Liszt went as far as to play the music from memory which was unheard of in that time.

Liszt's students, like Chopin's students became the disciples that continued their teacher's ideas so we are the result of their studies. My piano teacher for example, studied with students of Liszt, and other golden era pianists.

We owe a lot to these guys because without them we would not only have many of the developments in the piano technology we see today, but also many of the modern playing techniques that we employ in our performances.

John


Current works in progress:

Beethoven Sonata Op. 10 No. 2 in F, Haydn Sonata Hoboken XVI:41, Bach French Suite No. 5 in G BWV 816

Current instruments: Schimmel-Vogel 177T grand, Roland LX-17 digital, and John Lyon unfretted Saxon clavichord.
Re: Legacies of Chopin and Liszt #430657
06/10/07 11:53 AM
06/10/07 11:53 AM
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sophial Offline OP
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Bassio-
Chopin Opus 10 no 9 in F minor
Liszt Transcendental Etude no 10 in F minor.

Sophia

Re: Legacies of Chopin and Liszt #430658
06/10/07 05:59 PM
06/10/07 05:59 PM
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Mary-Rose Offline
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Bassio -
"At the age of 13, he composed a set of etudes.... "

Not true!

"Chopin's first compositions were somewhat under par. Let us not forget Sonata No.1, Fugue[1]"

Get your facts right, Bassio. Yes, Chopin wrote a fugue as an unpublished personal exercise just to see what it was like (in view of his admiration of Bach's "48") but that wasn't an early work - it was written just 8 years before he died.

Re: Legacies of Chopin and Liszt #430659
06/10/07 08:00 PM
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Hi Maryrose,
Bassio is right about the composition of his first set of etudes at 13.

Here's from Alan Walker: p.118 v.1
" A major artistic event for Liszt at this time ( in 1826-Liszt was 15) was the publication of a set of twelve studies, the so-called Etude en douze exercices. These pieces are historically important, for they were later transformed into the Grandes Etudes of 1838 and later still into the Transcendental Studies of 1851. Liszt had begun work on these difficult pieces when he was only 13 years old. They were published simultanousely by Boisselot of Marseille and Dufant and Dubois of Paris".

p. 119 "Many of the most striking effects of the later studies started life here (in these early etudes).. The Study in A-flat major (later known as the Ricordanza) reveals tht the nocturne-like melody , which so many commentators familiar with the 1851 version assume to have been inspired by Chopin, was in fact the creation of the thirteen-year old Liszt."

It doesn't diminish Chopin's incredible accomplishments at all to also acknowledge Liszt's. Both were geniuses.

Sophia

Re: Legacies of Chopin and Liszt #430660
06/10/07 10:19 PM
06/10/07 10:19 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by loveschopintoomuch:
I must warn you that I'm getting my boxing gloves on. eek
I was not aware that boxing gloves came in petite sizes.

Just kidding, just kidding! Phew, if I'm not in trouble now...

laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh


Jason
Re: Legacies of Chopin and Liszt #430661
06/11/07 02:27 AM
06/11/07 02:27 AM
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Mary-Rose Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by sophial:
Hi Maryrose,
Bassio is right about the composition of his first set of etudes at 13.

sophial - I do think that Liszt was a very great man. I love him. OK, Liszt *began* the composition of the first form of his etudes when he was 13 - I thought Bassio was giving the impression he had actually composed the set by then, which he had not. Thanks for clarifying laugh

Re: Legacies of Chopin and Liszt #430662
06/11/07 06:10 AM
06/11/07 06:10 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by argerichfan:
Quote
Originally posted by loveschopintoomuch:
I must warn you that I'm getting my boxing gloves on. eek
I was not aware that boxing gloves came in petite sizes.

Just kidding, just kidding! Phew, if I'm not in trouble now...

laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh
Watch out for those "petite" paws. They're big enough for Chopin.


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
Re: Legacies of Chopin and Liszt #430663
06/11/07 07:43 AM
06/11/07 07:43 AM
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Bassio Offline
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Thanks for the corrections maryrose and sophial.

Re: Legacies of Chopin and Liszt #430664
06/11/07 07:54 AM
06/11/07 07:54 AM
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Hey, you all. I just love where this post is going, all over the place. smile

First, I apologize for my little burst of a mild temper tantrum. frown I read the book (many years ago): "Women are from Venus and Men are from Mars." So, I got the impression that whippen boy was inferring that Chopin had the qualities (sensitivity) of a woman, whereas Liszt was definitely all male (more logical and forceful). Yikes, not another reference to Chopin's suspected sexual preferences. Been there...done that!! mad

But the more I thought about it, every artist (composer, painter....) HAS to have an extreme amount of sensitivity in order to create. I believe most would agree on this.

Not too long ago we got into a great discussion about the very topic of sensitivity when I said that I thought men were more sensitive (as a rule...and generally speaking) than women. Wow...that got some comments. AND (this really got me in trouble), I thought that women were stronger, emotionally, than men. eek I cited many examples, which really will get this whole thing off the subject.

So I will untie my boxing gloves and put them away for another day. wink

Somehow (and it's just a natural outcome) we are comparing the greatest of one composer over another (at least that's what I am gleening from the above). Artur Rubinstein said it is foolish (I am NOT calling you fools...honest. I think you're all wonderful bah If he only knew how many people quit the piano after having to suffer through these annual bouts of torture, he would not be happy.

But it all comes down to just one thing for me. Purely personal, I know. Which world would I choose? A world without Liszt or a world without Chopin?

Kathleen


After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891
Re: Legacies of Chopin and Liszt #430665
06/11/07 08:04 AM
06/11/07 08:04 AM
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Bassio Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by loveschopintoomuch:
A world without Liszt or a world without Chopin?

Kathleen
Harsh??

Re: Legacies of Chopin and Liszt #430666
06/11/07 08:26 AM
06/11/07 08:26 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by loveschopintoomuch:
I read the book (many years ago): "Women are from Venus and Men are from Mars." So, I got the impression that whippen boy was inferring that Chopin had the qualities (sensitivity) of a woman, whereas Liszt was definitely all male (more logical and forceful). Yikes, not another reference to Chopin's suspected sexual preferences. Been there...done that!! mad
I don't think whippen boy was making any implications about Chopin's sexual preference. Hopefully that rubbish has been fully discredited. Chopin, (cannons buried in flowers?), like Mozart seemed to have had that perfect balance of the yin and yang which make a person whole.


Jason
Re: Legacies of Chopin and Liszt #430667
06/11/07 08:32 AM
06/11/07 08:32 AM
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Here's an earlier quote in this thread from a wise(a~~) member:

Quote
playliszt

You do realize this is fodder for feuds? smile
.....The Prophecy is Fulfilled.......

Re: Legacies of Chopin and Liszt #430668
06/11/07 10:05 AM
06/11/07 10:05 AM
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sophial Offline OP
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Quote
Originally posted by maryrose:
Quote
Originally posted by sophial:
[b] Hi Maryrose,
Bassio is right about the composition of his first set of etudes at 13.

sophial - I do think that Liszt was a very great man. I love him. OK, Liszt *began* the composition of the first form of his etudes when he was 13 - I thought Bassio was giving the impression he had actually composed the set by then, which he had not. Thanks for clarifying laugh [/b]
HI maryrose,

and since they were published (these were not just first doodlings) when he was 15 (rather mind-boggling) he must have had them completed, or close to it, when he was 14 (and before any contact with CHopin's music). not too shabby and pretty darned close to 13. wink

Sophia

Re: Legacies of Chopin and Liszt #430669
06/11/07 10:27 AM
06/11/07 10:27 AM
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sophial Offline OP
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Quote
Originally posted by loveschopintoomuch:
Hey, you all. I just love where this post is going, all over the place. smile
.......
I agree that both men were geniuses, each in his own way, and have left us a legacy that is priceless........
.......

However,..I would especially like to thank Liszt for his idea of the "recital." bah If he only knew how many people quit the piano after having to suffer through these annual bouts of torture, he would not be happy.

But it all comes down to just one thing for me. Purely personal, I know. Which world would I choose? A world without Liszt or a world without Chopin?

Kathleen
HI Kathleen,

By piano recital I was not referring to the torture of small children (and sometimes adults) in training to be forced to perform twice a year in front of a group of strangers. :p
The term is used to refer to the situation in which the concert consists of one performer, the soloist, who performs alone on the piano (Liszt began this on the piano; Paganinni on the violin). So, you can't blame Liszt for that one, I don't think! unless it is an outgrowth of the master class which he did much to develop.

Your question of what world would I choose, one without Chopin or without Liszt is interesting. It's like asking -- what is better, a world without the Mona Lisa or without the Sistine Chapel? thank goodness we don't have to choose. But beyond the idea of whose music could I live without, my question is -- how much else would we give up if one of these men had not lived? how would the rest of the music world have looked? and my suspicion is that it would have looked more different without Liszt than without Chopin. Berlioz and Wagner might have not gotten the recognition they did without Liszt's championing of them. (Some might argue that in Wagner's case that would have been a good thing! )what would modern piano technique and development have been like without him and the Transcendental Etudes? could modern music have developed as it did into new harmonic spaces? Of course, it's impossible to say. But an interesting thought experiment.

As for me, I'm glad not to have to choose... smile


Sophia

Re: Legacies of Chopin and Liszt #430670
06/11/07 10:48 AM
06/11/07 10:48 AM
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Peyton Online content
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Chopin would have had to be living in a cave with earplugs on to not have been influenced by Liszt. Regardless of what musicians may say they are all influenced by others. Liszt and Chopin owe much to Bach, Mozart and Beethoven for starters. All artists wether they realize it or not get ideas from other artists alive and dead. Liszt and Chopin were both way too good (and close) to have not been influencing each other.

As to which musician may have influenced those musicians to come more... Overall I think it was probably Liszt. Then again... it would be hard to imagine a world without Chopin's music.


"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
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Re: Legacies of Chopin and Liszt #430671
06/11/07 11:36 AM
06/11/07 11:36 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by Peyton:
Chopin would have had to be living in a cave with earplugs on to not have been influenced by Liszt.
And try as he might, he found cave dwelling to be incompatible with his lung ailment (though the earplugs came in handy when George Sand was in a bad mood). laugh

I've been asked to explain my Mars/Venus comment. There's nothing to explain - it was only a weak attempt at levity. whome

I was quite amused by Jason's 'cosmic' comments, and took that as a starting point for my planetary post.

I actually think there might be something worth exploring in the "Men are from Mars..." book in relation to this thread...but Kathleen already touched upon it. smile


M&H "A" at home
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Re: Legacies of Chopin and Liszt #430672
06/11/07 12:12 PM
06/11/07 12:12 PM
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Quote
When I listen to Liszt's works or when I make my friends listen to his music, the first thing I notice are the technical difficulties in the work.
It's a question of focus. I don't see why, or even how, an ordinary music lover would focus on any technical aspect of the music. It's different when you play the instrument. That being said, you can still choose your focus consciously, if you become aware of the problem. Or perhaps it's not you, or your friends, but the performer who can't always transcend, either, the technical difficulties of the work, or his instinct to show-off, and so can't make music out of the notes? I'll quote from one of Brendel's Liszt essays:

Quote
Liszt's piano music depends to a great extent on an art that makes us forget the physical side of piano-playing. Yet it tends to be a vehicle for players of mere manual ability who lack any deeper musical insight. (In places where Liszt is viewed with disfavour, the conservatory students give themselves over with the same blind zeal to the demolition of Prokofiev sonatas.) The spell of 'technique for its own sake' will soon kill off the weaker brethren, and in the end it may well be Liszt himself who gets the blame for the whole epidemic.


In reality, Liszt stood in angry opposition to the drawing-room virtuosity of his time. He was first and foremost a phenomenon of expressiveness -- Schumann called him 'Genie des Vortrags' ('a genius of interpretation') -- so much so that he is said to have infused even Czerny and Cramer studies with radiant life. The frenzy and poetry of his music-making, allied to the new-found daredevilry of his technique, must not only have amazed the general public, but also dumbfounded his fellow pianists in the early years. Clara Wieck wrote to Robert Schumann, describing how Liszt's recitals had affected her: 'My own playing seems so boring and haphazard to me now -- I've almost lost the inclination to go on tour again. After hearing and seeing Liszt's bravura, I feel like a student.' And again: 'Sometimes you think it's a spirit sitting there at the piano.' Technique served Liszt as a means of opening up new realms of expression. Anyone who is of the opinion that there is even one work by Liszt where gymnastics is the principal aim, had better keep his hands off this composer.
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/2192/essays4.html

Re: Legacies of Chopin and Liszt #430673
06/11/07 08:56 PM
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sophial Offline OP
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Wonderful post, Antonius! The quote from Brendel gets right to the heart of it IMHO-- the ultimate goal in Liszt's music is to evoke and express emotion and the human experience with both power and tenderness. The virtuosity and use of orchestral effects was a means to that end, not "camouflage" or showboating. Thank you for posting that!

Sophia

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