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Well, Hebrew school is probably where (at least at my congregation) kids were at their utter worst. Parents didn't really care about kids' success in Hebrew school, as it has nothing to do with getting into college (which is all parents 'round these parts seem to care about), so that's probably the most pessimistic sampling of lazyness and obnoxiousnses you could find.
But anyway, that's a little off-topic, if only a little.
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Originally posted by pianistical: Silent Omen,
I once worked as a substitute teacher at a jewish school. The students were not nearly as diligent as I had expected.
Or maybe I wasn´t cut out to be a teacher. When I was in college, I did a two-week volunteer program in Israel in a religious (Jewish) high school. Those kids were out of control. In Yiddish, we'd call them vilde chayas--wild beasts.
markb--The Count of Casio
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Blame it all on country music! Let's ban it. And then everyone will play piano. And then we will all be happy.
Amateur Pianist, Scriabin Enthusiast, and Octave Demon
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Originally posted by dnephi: Blame it all on country music! Let's ban it. And then everyone will play piano. And then we will all be happy. HEAR HEAR!!!!
Compassion, Love, Strength, Peace, Dignity, Balance, Order
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Once Pogorelich was asked by a music critic, Jew himself: - How did it happen that you become so famous and you are not a Jew? - You discovered it to late - answered Pogo
Living well is the best revenge.
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Some people and races, on average, have natural talents that others don't. Just as their physique and appearance are different, so are their minds. It's perfectly easy for me to understand and accept this. Black people dominate the 100 m dash and other sports. Jews excel at music and business. Men of northern European descent excel as inventors, etc. The paradigm that "all men are created equal" is an outdated notion that assumes that man inexplicably stopped evolving about 100,000 years ago when he spread out over the world from Africa. A more accurate axiom would be "no two men are ever equal".
I have a Jewish friend who plays piano. He barely reads music, but is phenomenal. He sits down and makes up music on his own and has a repertoire of over fifty songs...it has a ragtime sound and is quite complex and sounds fantastic. Neither of his parents are musicians. I was nurtured in a family of professional musicians, but I cannot do what he does. It is a natural talent.
Don Kansas City
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It is far more likely that stereotyping pushes people of arbitrary groupings, such as religion, skin color, etc. into certain roles. It is likely that there is an equal percentage of Americans of (recent) African descent who are accomplished pianists, particularly if you choose those who have been exposed to the possibility of playing the piano, as there are American Jews. The fact that it is not recognized here reflects the fact that they still are not as accepted as "classical" musicians as those of other characteristics.
Semipro Tech
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Originally posted by BDB: It is far more likely that stereotyping pushes people of arbitrary groupings, such as religion, skin color, etc. into certain roles. It is likely that there is an equal percentage of Americans of (recent) African descent who are accomplished pianists, particularly if you choose those who have been exposed to the possibility of playing the piano, as there are American Jews. The fact that it is not recognized here reflects the fact that they still are not as accepted as "classical" musicians as those of other characteristics. I don't know about that. There are plenty of recognized musicians who are not Jewish - probably many more than there are who are Jewish. It's a simple observation that many of them are Jewish; it's also an observation that a lot of the 'greats' happen to be Russian; it's also an observation that a lot of the 'great' composers happen to be German/Austrian. But there are still plenty of recognized non-Jewish musicians; there are still plenty of recognized non-Russian musicians; and there are still plenty of recognized non-German-Austrian composers.
Sam
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If I converted to Judaism, would I become a better pianist? *twinkle* (Sorry... I simply refuse to be gay, although I am generally quite a happy person...) So maybe I could become a "not so very bad" pianist?
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If I converted to Judaism, would I become a better pianist? You can try, but I've been waiting for 39 years for that Jewish-piano-playing gene to kick in.
markb--The Count of Casio
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do we have to distinguish Jewish pianists from Christian pianists, or non-Christian/non-Jewish pianists, or Buddist pianists, Hindo pianists or something pianists? i just wonder what difference such categorizing would make?
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No difference. But from an antropological point of view, it's interesting to notice such statistics -- as many have suggested in this thread, it might tell us something about various cultures.
Sam
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Well, read a book on Eugenics for the true information for this stuff. I can't say it or I'd gt kicked for racism :p .
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I don't necessarilly believe that the Jews' success is due to a natural physical characteristic.
My grandparents are Holocaust survivors. Because of this, my father grew up in an exceedingly disfunctional houshold. My grandmother was devoted to her children and loved them more than anything else in the world, but she was clinically insane. Auschwitz took its toll... I won't go into details, but it took strength and determination to survive. My dad was poor growing up. He took care of bills, taxes, etc. because my grandparents were not fluent enough in English to do it themselves. Despite his unusual upbringing, he managed to get a full scholarship to college and graduated from Harvard Buisness School - that took determination. I feel an obligation to succeed and to fight just as my grandparents and father did. Jews, I believe, have had this determination for thousands of years. It's not a biological trait. It's a tradition.
- Zack -
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Originally posted by C.V. Alkan: I don't necessarilly believe that the Jews' success is due to a natural physical characteristic.
My grandparents are Holocaust survivors. Because of this, my father grew up in an exceedingly disfunctional houshold. My grandmother was devoted to her children and loved them more than anything else in the world, but she was clinically insane. Auschwitz took its toll... I won't go into details, but it took strength and determination to survive. My dad was poor growing up. He took care of bills, taxes, etc. because my grandparents were not fluent enough in English to do it themselves. Despite his unusual upbringing, he managed to get a full scholarship to college and graduated from Harvard Buisness School - that took determination. I feel an obligation to succeed and to fight just as my grandparents and father did. Jews, I believe, have had this determination for thousands of years. It's not a biological trait. It's a tradition. I can see your point and I agree that such extremes can definitely contribute to one's drive, determination and ultimate successes in life. But Jews had already clearly demonstrated their flair for the performing arts long before the holocaust. Look at Hollywood. Prior to WWII the majority of studios were owned by Jews and the industry was largely staffed by Jewish actors, musicians and dancers (and still is)...and in a much larger percentage than the relatively small population of Jews in America. There are those who claim that this is due to favoritism in the industry, but I'm not buying it. As pointed out in the original post, though Jews make up less than 3% of the population of America, they utterly dominate the highest musical positions, particularly in solo piano and violin. To write this phenomenon off as strictly due to ambitions encouraged by their family and culture is to not see the whole picture. It's like saying that black dominance in the 100 m dash is only because they practice more, which I think is nonsense and underrates the natural abilities of various ethnic groups. It's also an insult to those of us who are not Jewish and work our tail off trying to succeed in music to imply that we simply didn't try hard enough. At some point it is necessary to concede to sheer superior talent. Don Kansas City
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I do agree with you to a point, but I do think nurture has more to do with Jewish success in the past than nature. I would wager than the majority of Jews in America around the turn of the century were immigrants, and as such, the first-generation American Jews of that era grew up in similarly difficult conditions as the Jews of Europe and Russia around the Holocaust era.
Many of the successful Jewish musicians from the past are exactly that - musicians of the past. If you look at successful musicians today, you'll find that a significantly smaller proportion of them are Jews. I am one of three Jewish pianists at my music school, out of roughly 40 or 50. The majority of them are Asian (and not only that, but Asian girls). Of the violinists, there may be one or two Jews, and of the cellists, there's one.
Of all the Jews at my old high school, only a small handful (perhaps 15 or 20 out of six or seven hundred) played any musical instrument at all.
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In the past, Jews were relegated to what was considered to be dirty or lower-class tasks--such as money/banking and entertainment. We were forced into it, and we got good at it. I'm not convinced that Jews are naturally better at business or music. I'm no anthropologist, but my guess is that we're not physiologically/genetically a whole lot different from other Eastern European or Semitic groups.
markb--The Count of Casio
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Some cultures are all about nurturing, and building, while others are all about death and destruction. How else do you explain the fact, that the Jews, who only constitute 0.2% of the world's population, make up 25% of the Nobel Prize winners (169). At the same time, 1 bilion members of another culture have a pathetic 7, the number which includes a murderer as well...
I'm not a Jew by the way (not that it matters), but I truly admire their people, and culture. I live in the U.S., and the Jewish neighborhoods, are known to be the best and safest neighborhoods to live in.
Nothing angers me more, than listening to anti-Semitic "useful idiots" in the U.S. and Europe, who are attacking Jews or Israel. The state of Israel is the last bastion of Democracy and Western Civilization in the Midle East, and it is surrounded by pure evil. I consider it my duty to support those brave people in their David vs. Goliath struggle.
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