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#418988 - 06/04/03 01:39 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
Joined: Jun 2001
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CrashTest Offline
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chickgrand,

Are you sure you are talking about the J.S Bach, and not one of his sons!? To me, his music is the opposite of dated- for this very reason, composers of the past and present look to him for ideas. Can you follow the counterpoint in his works well? Many people who lack a developed sense of polyphony find his work boring, since a lot of the excitement is in seeing how all of the different voices develop and merge into the harmonious structure.

I agree with you on Debussy. I do think you should give Brahms another consideration, he has some great works, although he is of course, no Debussy. wink

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#418989 - 06/04/03 06:13 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
Joined: May 2002
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kluurs Offline
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kluurs  Offline
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Chicago
If I were to suddenly have my own harem, would I spend my time ranking the young lovelies from one to 50 or just enjoy my good fortune? Better yet, let them compete for my attention. Ranking -- too much work...just enjoy...

K

#418990 - 06/04/03 06:23 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 624
The D's Pianist Offline
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The D's Pianist  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
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Southwestern Oregon
Quote
If I were to suddenly have my own harem, would I spend my time ranking the young lovelies from one to 50 or just enjoy my good fortune? Better yet, let them compete for my attention. Ranking -- too much work...just enjoy...
ROFL!
laugh :p


Musically,
Benjamin Francis
http://www.myspace.com/benjaminfrancis
(I just changed my sig., so no grief, yeah?)
----------
Sofia Gilmson regarding Bach:
"Bach didn't write the subject; he wrote the fugue."
#418991 - 06/04/03 06:43 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
Joined: Feb 2003
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RachFan Offline
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RachFan  Offline
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Maine, U.S.
Hi Kreisler:

Yes, from a musicological standpoint Gluck was important in his lifetime the same way Weber was before the latter was totally eclipsed by the better appreciated Romantic composers. But neither one withstood the test of time or universality. In perspective then, Gluck deserves to drop off of any "greats of all time" list in my opinion. I certainly would not object to his being an historical footnote though.

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#418992 - 06/04/03 08:19 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
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Posts: 182
Joe Townley Offline
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Joe Townley  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 182
Glendale
KREISLER WRITES:

Shut up, loser. Everybody knows that a good watermelon beats even the best apple every day of the week.

I mean...it's like....it's like....comparing apples to oranges, you know?? hehehe...whoa!...hehehe...hehehe....whoa!

---------------------------------------------
A Dog-Feeder's Dirge: (sung to the tune of "The Girl That I Marry")
The Dane that I'm feeding, I hate to say
Is costing me seventeen bucks a day!
He eats a daily meal
Of T-bones and lambchops and shoulder of veal.

And when he is finishd, he has a bowl
Of Porterhouse Steak and File of Sole.
His great yearning, I am learning
Swallows up every penny I'm earning.
The Dane that I'm feeding
Is constantly bleeding
Me dry!

#418993 - 06/04/03 08:20 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 182
Joe Townley Offline
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Joe Townley  Offline
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Glendale
Quote
Originally posted by Joe Townley:
KREISLER WRITES:

[b]Shut up, loser. Everybody knows that a good watermelon beats even the best apple every day of the week.


I mean...it's like....it's like....comparing apples to oranges, you know?? hehehe...whoa!...hehehe...hehehe....whoa!

---------------------------------------------
A Dog-Feeder's Dirge: (sung to the tune of "The Girl That I Marry")
The Dane that I'm feeding, I hate to say
Is costing me seventeen bucks a day!
He eats a daily meal
Of T-bones and lambchops and shoulder of veal.

And when he is finishd, he has a bowl
Of Porterhouse Steak and File of Sole.
His great yearning, I am learning
Swallows up every penny I'm earning.
The Dane that I'm feeding
Is constantly bleeding
Me dry![/b]
http://www.JoeTownley.com Lots of piano videos!

#418994 - 06/04/03 08:22 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 182
Joe Townley Offline
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Joe Townley  Offline
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Glendale
Quote
Originally posted by Joe Townley:
Quote
Originally posted by Joe Townley:
[b]KREISLER WRITES:

[b]Shut up, loser. Everybody knows that a good watermelon beats even the best apple every day of the week.

I mean...it's like....it's like....comparing apples to oranges, you know?? hehehe...whoa!...hehehe...hehehe....whoa!

---------------------------------------------
A Dog-Feeder's Dirge: (sung to the tune of "The Girl That I Marry")
The Dane that I'm feeding, I hate to say
Is costing me seventeen bucks a day!
He eats a daily meal
Of T-bones and lambchops and shoulder of veal.

And when he is finishd, he has a bowl
Of Porterhouse Steak and File of Sole.
His great yearning, I am learning
Swallows up every penny I'm earning.
The Dane that I'm feeding
Is constantly bleeding
Me dry![/b]
http://www.JoeTownley.com Lots of piano videos![/b]

#418995 - 06/04/03 08:23 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 182
Joe Townley Offline
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Joe Townley  Offline
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Posts: 182
Glendale
KREISLER WRITES:

Shut up, loser. Everybody knows that a good watermelon beats even the best apple every day of the week.

I mean...it's like....it's like....comparing apples to oranges, you know?? hehehe...whoa!...hehehe...hehehe....whoa!

---------------------------------------------
A Dog-Feeder's Dirge: (sung to the tune of "The Girl That I Marry")
The Dane that I'm feeding, I hate to say
Is costing me seventeen bucks a day!
He eats a daily meal
Of T-bones and lambchops and shoulder of veal.

And when he is finishd, he has a bowl
Of Porterhouse Steak and File of Sole.
His great yearning, I am learning
Swallows up every penny I'm earning.
The Dane that I'm feeding
Is constantly bleeding
Me dry![/qb][/QUOTE] http://www.JoeTownley.com Lots of piano videos![/qb][/QUOTE][/QB][/QUOTE]

#418996 - 06/04/03 08:27 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 182
Joe Townley Offline
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Joe Townley  Offline
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Glendale
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe Townley:
[QB]KREISLER WRITES:

Shut up, loser. Everybody knows that a good watermelon beats even the best apple every day of the week.

I mean...it's like....it's like....comparing apples to oranges, you know?? hehehe...whoa!...hehehe...hehehe....whoa!

---------------------------------------------
A Dog-Feeder's Dirge: (sung to the tune of "The Girl That I Marry")
The Dane that I'm feeding, I hate to say
Is costing me seventeen bucks a day!
He eats a daily meal
Of T-bones and lambchops and shoulder of veal.

And when he is finishd, he has a bowl
Of Porterhouse Steak and File of Sole.
His great yearning, I am learning
Swallows up every penny I'm earning.
The Dane that I'm feeding
Is constantly bleeding
Me dry!

http://www.JoeTownley.com Lots of piano videos!

#418997 - 06/04/03 09:37 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,857
Bernard Offline
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North Groton, NH
mkesfahani,
Quote
The fact that Berlioz ... on there baffles me.
You blaspheme! Berlioz's "Nuit d'été" is one of my favorite set of songs.

I still think trying to rank composers is as silly as trying to rank artists from Rembrant, Da Vinci, Michaelangelo on up to Kandinsky, Worhol, and Pollock.

Phlebas,
Quote
... it's more like sirloin vs. vichyssoise...
Nice.


"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown
#418998 - 06/04/03 09:54 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
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Krazypaul Offline
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I think Beethoven deserves some kind of leverage in the ranking because of how he could composed music with his growing deafness. or if it was considered or this is considered to be superfluous..then nvm.

#418999 - 06/04/03 10:03 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
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ChickGrand Offline
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ChickGrand  Offline
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Midwest U.S.
___________
Jazzd said:

So is there really nothing of Bach's that you consider "good"? You would say all his music fails technically and aesthetically?

It is difficult enough to imagine anyone thinking this of Brahms with anything approaching good reason, let alone Bach. Your friend should be congratulated - you are definitely missing out...
______________

CrashTest said:

Are you sure you are talking about the J.S Bach, and not one of his sons!? To me, his music is the opposite of dated- for this very reason, composers of the past and present look to him for ideas. Can you follow the counterpoint in his works well? Many people who lack a developed sense of polyphony find his work boring, since a lot of the excitement is in seeing how all of the different voices develop and merge into the harmonious structure.

___________

Yup, I'm talking about that J. S. Bach. I understand counterpoint and polyphony and his approach to voices. It's specifically that what he did with them is NOT exciting. It's very nearly mathematical and predictable. While I do recognize Bach's significant contributions to composition and form that followed, I have never felt in the least moved by any of his work. He all but bores me to tears. He strikes more as a theorist and less an artist in his composition. As to Brahms, my word would be "mediocre" if I remain polite. All that said, whether I'm moved by one and not by another is a matter of taste. I'm not arguing technical merit, just artistry. Ability to compose/play within a form doesn't show me much. Doing something I wouldn't expect and making it sound good does.

(Judging composers is about as meaningful as judging figure skating or ice dance at the Olympics.)

#419000 - 06/04/03 10:05 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
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ChickGrand Offline
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ChickGrand  Offline
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P.S. Erik Satie would get in somewhere in MY top 50.

#419001 - 06/04/03 10:25 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
Joined: Nov 2002
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Kreisler Offline
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Iowa City, IA
Well, people from Norman are weird, so you're allowed. wink


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
#419002 - 06/04/03 11:03 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
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ChickGrand Offline
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ChickGrand  Offline
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Midwest U.S.
Kreisler said:

Well, people from Norman are weird, so you're allowed.

________

No disagreement there. Just curious how you have come to know that though.

#419003 - 06/04/03 11:06 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
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CrashTest Offline
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chickgrand,

The common misconception about Bach is that he is pedantic, predictable, and without true emotion- but this is a horrible view. Have you studied his works extensively, or were you put off just because of the recordings you heard? Listen to the Brandenburg concerti, the keyboard concerti, English suites, partitas, how can they be boring?! (He wrote more than just the well-tempered clavier!)

Bach is not so strict in form that he is predictable. His fugues are not even "textbook" fugues. I understand your idea on technical skill and artisty, but I seriously think that your are viewing Bach through the wrong "looking glass".

I would hate to read what you think of Mozart!

(What do you think of Mozart?) wink

#419004 - 06/04/03 11:52 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
Joined: May 2003
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ChickGrand Offline
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ChickGrand  Offline
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Midwest U.S.
CrashTest wrote:

(What do you think of Mozart?)

I try not to.

#419005 - 06/05/03 12:01 AM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
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CrashTest Offline
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CrashTest  Offline
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!

#419006 - 06/05/03 12:02 AM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
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Bernard Offline
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North Groton, NH
It's my very un-scientific opinion that children who are exposed to Bach's music when they are very young and young will develop a strong joie de vivre. At least--I wouldn't be surprised if they found that out through some study or other. Especially some of the chorals from the cantatas.

You should see what my birds do when I put one on--they gather on a perch, sit contentedly and have every appearance of listening and enjoying the gorgeous sound of Bach. (They do this with other classical music too.) I'm convinced it's a pleasurable sensory experience for them.


"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown
#419007 - 06/05/03 01:36 AM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
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StanSteel Offline
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Los Angeles
Quote
Originally posted by Joe Townley:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe Townley:
[QB]KREISLER WRITES:

[b]Shut up, loser. Everybody knows that a good watermelon beats even the best apple every day of the week.


I mean...it's like....it's like....comparing apples to oranges, you know?? hehehe...whoa!...hehehe...hehehe....whoa!

---------------------------------------------
A Dog-Feeder's Dirge: (sung to the tune of "The Girl That I Marry")
The Dane that I'm feeding, I hate to say
Is costing me seventeen bucks a day!
He eats a daily meal
Of T-bones and lambchops and shoulder of veal.

And when he is finishd, he has a bowl
Of Porterhouse Steak and File of Sole.
His great yearning, I am learning
Swallows up every penny I'm earning.
The Dane that I'm feeding
Is constantly bleeding
Me dry!

http://www.JoeTownley.com Lots of piano videos![/b]
Shut up, Mona Lisa laugh


"War does not determine who is right; only who is left."
#419008 - 06/05/03 03:55 AM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 175
David_J Offline
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David_J  Offline
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Australia
Anyone who doesn't like Mozart should flush their head down some toilet... (Please take my advice in good faith).

I like Bach's Italian Concerto... how come I don't hear of it much here? I think it's underrated... the third movement is quite enjoyable. smile

Regarding the list, switch Mozart and Bach, delete Beethoven (not too serious...) and I'm happy.

#419009 - 06/05/03 05:04 AM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
Joined: Dec 2002
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Annihil8or Offline
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The only reason I can think of that people cannot find anything in Bach, Brahms, Beethoven, Mozart etc. is that they just don't know how to listen to that kind of music. They can't form a musical conception of the works, they are too stuck on how "similar" the material sound, rather than what it actually "means". It's like saying you can't find any sense in what French people say because you don't like the sound of their language.

Bernard: My dog comes and sits next to the piano whenever I play Chopin. confused

#419010 - 06/05/03 10:11 AM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,654
Phlebas Offline
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Joined: Jan 2003
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New York City
chickgrand,

You said: 'As to Brahms, my word would be "mediocre" if I remain polite. '
If you don't mind my saying so, you are responding more to your own personal taste rather than an informed opinion on a the "greatness" of these composers.

It's fine not to like Bach, Mozart, Brahms - or, for that matter, any of the other composers whose music is generally considered by the rest of the classical music listening/performing community as pinnacles of artistic achievement, and whose works have survived for centuries and will endure until the last stone of our civilization is destroyed (I guess you know how highly I regard these composers by now).

However, this thread is about determining the "greatest" composers, historically - if that is at all possible - and you often have to put aside your personal preferences to form and argue objective, informed opinions. For, example, I don't really like Schoenberg, but he should be on this list. Also, I would rather read a novel by Mickey Spillane than one by Marcel Proust. That doesn't mean I think Proust was inferior, or a "mediocre" writer.

#419011 - 06/05/03 11:52 AM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 3,269
ChickGrand Offline
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ChickGrand  Offline
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Midwest U.S.
Phlebas said:

If you don't mind my saying so, you are responding more to your own personal taste rather than an informed opinion on a the "greatness" of these composers.
_________

I think I said this about taste myself. It is precisely a matter of taste. I'm not even arguing that Bach, Brahms and Mozart wouldn't be on my list of 50. They just wouldn't be much beyond my middle. One must consider the whole body of a person's work to determine the value of their contribution to their field. Lots of small incremental innovations add up. But that doesn't make any one effort a work of genius. But then neither does one major innovation in a flash of genius elevate one's body of work above that of the other who's plugged away with hundreds of solid, but incremental, efforts. There are composers who've produced only a few wonderful pieces. I wouldn't necessarily put them on a list of only 50, even if I liked all of their small body of work.

I just happen to not like the aesthetic, the style of Bach, Mozart or Brahms. That's why I give them their due for technical merit (particularly Bach there). I just don't find myself wanting to listen to their body of work. An occassional piece, yes, an evening's program, certainly not.

Judging composers is really like judging any other "art" (my figure skating reference). Technical merit alone can get you a bronze or silver. Some additional artistry is usually required to get on the higher podium with a gold. And that mark for artistry is always in the subjective eyes or ears of the judge.

Bach, Brahms, and Mozart just don't suit my taste or convey any emotion I can relate to. (In the case of Bach, I come nearer appreciating his work on harpsichord rather than piano. And wonder if I'd like his work better on a properly, historically-tempered piano.)

I plan to force myself to wade through my vast shelf of vinyl and CD's. One's aesthetic sense gets redefined with experience. But I'm doubtful that I'll come away from the experience with any new-found admiration for the aesthetics of those three. One can acquire a "taste" for something. In my case, Satie was a little inaccessible emotionally at first, but I've learned to love a fair bit of his rather enigmatic work.

I grew up in a house filled with music. I have a huge collection that includes these three. (No collection or education would be complete without it.) But the fact that previously listening to extensive volumes of their work has not inspired me to either want to listen to it again, nor to want to play it, is a likely indicator that I will probably find that yes, I still really don't like it. (I have MADE myself listen to their stuff on occassion, with a critical ear.)

I consider myself to be very open-minded in all things, but quite simply, there's too much great music out there to waste time immersing oneself in something that simply does not appeal to one's own taste. If it doesn't move me, I have no cause to listen or to play it myself. I expect to be moved emotionally and intellectually challenged by music.

(Would you prefer I learn to love and wear out all that Mozart, Bach, and Brahms vinyl you could someday buy in its current pristine condition at my eventual post-mortem estate sale?) wink

#419012 - 06/05/03 12:15 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
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ChickGrand Offline
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No Delibes in that 50?

(Have to get that in before a block-long mob of Mozart, Bach and Brahms afficianados with pitchforks arrive and burn me in the windmill.)

Actually, I wouldn't ever presume to be so well acquainted with enough of the life-time body of work of all of the major and minor composers to even begin ranking and culling to 50.

As Liszt said, "Music is enough for a lifetime. But a lifetime is not enough for music."

#419013 - 06/05/03 12:23 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
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Matt G. Offline
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Plainfield, IL
I am just going to weigh in with two observations. First is that the list is comprised of composers in all musical genres, not just piano music. Perhaps the author felt that Rach's contributions were too piano-centric. Second is that I'm glad the author chose to include Smetana and Janacek. They both wrote some wonderful piano music, much of which is quite technically demanding. They seldom receive their due respect. (Yikes! eek Post #1000? Someone shut me up!)


Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens
#419014 - 06/05/03 01:38 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
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Quote
Originally posted by chickgrand:

Actually, I wouldn't ever presume to be so well acquainted with enough of the life-time body of work of all of the major and minor composers to even begin ranking and culling to 50.

As Liszt said, "Music is enough for a lifetime. But a lifetime is not enough for music."
Rachmaninoff said that, actually. (Pianomuse? smile )

#419015 - 06/05/03 02:17 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
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Diarmuid2 Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by benedict:
Mozart cannot be less than very close to Bach.
Listen the the Magic Flute of the 23rd piano concerto or the concerto for clarinette or the [b]quintette with clarinette
. Or Don Giovanni.
[/b]
Hey, I did a live recording of the clarinet quintet for someone recently. For anyone who doubts benedict's wisdom:

http://www.diarmuid.plus.com/Mozclip.mp3

#419016 - 06/05/03 03:04 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
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nickyg Offline
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Essex
Chickgrand, you say that you adore Beethoven yet cannot listen to Mozart. I maybe wrong here, but this suggests to me that you really haven't listened to that much Mozart, and you disliked what you heard. This i can sort of understand, in that I have listened to Stockhausen twice and I won't again if I have a choice. But that is slightly different. Some of Mozart's music I dislike. But some of his work is so stunningly moving that it make your stomach turn. And while you may feel that Mozarts sonatas lack the depth and brutality of Beethovens, dig a little deeper and you may be pleasantly surprised by what you find. It isn't all light and airy. He's considered great for a reason. Personally i think Mozart and Beethoven compliment each other wonderfully as examples of examplary classical music, at either sides of the spectrum. Give it a try.

As for Bach, I also find him slightly inaccesible, and would never rush to see a Bach program, but when you decide to listen without prejudice as I can occasionaly when the mood suits, I sometimes find the discords and the progressiveness of Bach fascinating and it is something that you may grow into, as I slowly am. It takes a while, but then you see what previously you couldn't, or didn't want too.


"The difference between impossible and possible is practice" Horowitz
#419017 - 06/05/03 03:48 PM Re: Rachmaninoff not even in the top 50?!!!!!  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,111
CrashTest Offline
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CrashTest  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,111
Listening to and playing the works of composers is really a vastly different thing. For those who do not associate with Bach or Mozart's music, have you learned any of their works? (Keyboard or otherwise) I find that when one becomes intimate with a piece, it opens up an entire level of appreciation that dwarfs any superficial "taste" or bias one may of had.

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