Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?

- L.V.Beethoven (1770-1827) 57 g.


- C. Czerny (1791-1857) 66 g.


- F. Liszt (1811-1886) 75 g.


- B. Stavenhagen (1862-1914) (also studied with Kullak)


- Berthe Poncy Jacobson


- Frederic Rothchild (1914-2002) 88 y.


On rare occasions, you run into someone who really knows what he's doing. As a piano teacher, Fred was definitely in that category. He was quite an accomplished pianist as well (every year he'd play Islamey for a friend on her birthday). And for me, Fred's the real heavyweight on the above list - why, Beethoven weighed only 57 grams! (I guess "g" is the Macedonian abbreviation for "year;" correct ecm?)

My new teacher studied with Kempff and Tureck, but I don't know how to trace it back farther than that. Had my first lesson with her today.

Are you sure Chopin studied with Czerny?

I have the same question. I thought Chopin studied under Zwicky. My teacher studied under Heinrich Neuhaus and at one time we traced back the lineage to Chopin, where it stopped at Zwicky.

For all of you descendants of Beethoven, why are you stopping at him? Granted, Beethoven did not have good things to say about his teachers, but doesn't Haydn count for anything?

Liszt & Mikuli (student of Chopin)
Moriz Rosenthal
Robert Goldsand
Veryl Zech
yours truly!

Chris

Chopin was definitely not taught by Czerny. He was first taught by his mother who was said to have been an excellent pianist and who sometimes gave lessons to supplement the family income.
When it became apparent he was something special his father hired his friend Wojciech Zywny, who was primarily a violinist, to teach his son. Zywny was already an old man then but lived into his 80's. He essentially guided Chopin while he taught himself. These lessons continued from the time Chopin was six until he was twelve when Zywny decided Chopin knew more than he did. Zywny remained a close friend and a fixture in the Chopin household from then on. Zwyny also taught Chopin to play the violin though Chopin seems to have dropped it as soon as possible. From about 16-18 Chopin had lessons in composition and counterpoint at the Warsaw Conservatory with Josef Elsner. That's it.

Zwyny or Zwicky? I've got some program notes to a concert that say Zwicky but Wikipedia agrees with you about a Mr. Wojciech Adalbert Żywny. I also remember reading that Chopin is probably the greatest self-taught composer and pianist - moreso than Mozart. Given what little training he had, he single-handedly invented an entirely new piano technique. That would make him one of the most notable geniuses in music. I know Bernstein used to say all composers followed one of two paths: that set by Beethoven, and the other set by Chopin.

With all that, Chopin left little actual legacy of gifted pianists who benefited from his teaching. If you can draw your lineage to Mikuli that is about your only chance to connect to Chopin himself.

By the way, there is a good thread down below here on Chopin the Teacher.

Chopin didn't study with Czerny, he visited him once, and wrote that he found the man "warmer than his music."

Just for those who might like to know I'll list the teachers of Beethoven as listed on the Teacher Pedigree my teacher compiled after scrupulous research.

Gilles Van Den Eeden
Chris G. Neefe
Albrechtsberger
Franz Ries
E. A. Forster
Schuppanzigh
A. Salieri
F. J. Haydn

I can only give you what is on the chart. You can check the accuracy for yourselves.

For Chopin he gives:

Adalbert Zywny
Joseph Elsner
Friedrich Kalkbrenner

Have fun! :>

I appologize if I had made that error on Chopin studying with Czerny. I try my best to verify my information always before posting. In this case, I was under the impression he had studied with Czerny, but who knows I may have read that somewhere in one of those old overly Romanticised music history books!

Varcon - Have fun! You're not kidding! That makes me wonder who did Elsner and Kalkbrenner study with? Geneaology is such an interesting subject. Off to do some more research.

John

I could trace it, but it wouldn't be very interesting I don't think

John:

For Elsner one of his instructors was Forster (umlaut over the 'o') but no others are given in his bio.

Kalkbrenner: Father was a musician and apparently started his instruction. At five he played a Haydn concerto for the Queen of Prussia. Graduated at 13 from the Paris Conservatory. Started drinking a lot and Haydn was his teacher--moved him to Vienna where he was under the influence of Beethoven, Hummel, and Clementi.

Zywny has nothing on the chart but that he was a Bohemian pianist and musician.

My teacher, Dr. Eric Street, also took from Goldsand.

Carissimmi
A. Scarlatti
Porpora
Haydn
Ludwig van Beethoven
Czerny
Liszt
Diemer, Rosenthal
Cortot, Casadesus, Goldsand
Bern, M. Pressler,
Dr. Eric Street - directly studied with Bern, Pressler, and Goldsand
ME

Chopin never studied with Kalkbrenner. He did visit Kalkbrenner and played for him. Kalkbrenner then suggested Chopin study with him for three years to "finish" him. Chopin's first reaction was "three years is too long." He did give Kalkbrenner's offer some reluctant consideration and wrote to his family and Josef Elsner for advice. They consulted together and wrote back advising against it, even suggesting that there might be something of a jealous motive in Kalkbrenner's offer. They feared study with Kalkbrenner might take the edge off Chopin's individuality. Chopin declined.

I had a piano teacher in high school whose piano teacher's piano teacher was Rachmaninoff. But other than that, I have no clue.

Waterfall: That shouldn't be too hard to ascertain--I believe Rachmaninoff was put with Zerev early on and then with his cousin Siloti (student of Liszt) and then you can go on back!

Frycek: Found the story which corroborates your post but I'll check into it more just to make certain. Kalkbrenner had some problems but one source does say Chopin studied with him. I'll look again as I know my teacher was very thorough in his research. But he's dead now so asking him for any information is impossible.

i'm still waiting for any indication of what comprises my pedigree.

Chopin was the primary source for what I wrote about Kalkbrenner. Most of what I posted was from his letters.

We're probably just mutts. I don't even know my Frenchwoman's maiden name. She did mention studying at the Conservatory in Paris (she was from Marseilles) but if she ever mentioned Cortot, I've forgotten. She was nuts about Chopin though (my obsession came later.) To this day, I pronounce his name French fashion and get some odd looks until I explain it's "Show Pan" I'm talking about.