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Possibly some of the most impressive Prokofiev ever
#418349 01/09/09 07:22 PM
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This is a Polish pianist Jozef Kapustka playing one of the most difficult piano pages ever written,Prokofiev 7th Sonata, 3rd part
Incredible*****
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17eY339td4M

Re: Possibly some of the most impressive Prokofiev ever
#418350 01/09/09 07:33 PM
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Well, there's 2 minutes and 26 seconds of my life I'll never get back.

Sorry, but that didn't do anything for me.

Re: Possibly some of the most impressive Prokofiev ever
#418351 01/09/09 08:01 PM
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Cyprien's is even faster, and as amazing as it is, I completely disagree with this approach.


"I'm a concert pianist--that's a pretentious way of saying I'm unemployed at the moment."--Oscar Levant

http://www.youtube.com/kojiattwood
https://www.giftedmusicschool.org/
Re: Possibly some of the most impressive Prokofiev ever
#418352 01/09/09 08:36 PM
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Whew. (Catching breath and wiping brow). Impressive. My score says "precipitato" but maybe it should say precipitatissimo.

Fabulous technique but I think the musicality is lost in the speed. I like a more disquieting version.


Best regards,

Deborah
Re: Possibly some of the most impressive Prokofiev ever
#418353 01/09/09 08:42 PM
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Sorry, but Horowitz still owns this in my book. smile


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Possibly some of the most impressive Prokofiev ever
#418354 01/09/09 09:12 PM
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I think that pretty much any piece can be played super-duper fast if you just practise it like crazy. When I was filming myself practising some Chopin etudes, after a couple of takes the speed was just ridiculous. Try it if you have a camera and compare after multiple takes, it´s actually really hard to keep the tempo down after repeated performances.

Then you just take the last take and post in on YouTube! :-)

Re: Possibly some of the most impressive Prokofiev ever
#418355 01/09/09 09:13 PM
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There is no faster rendering of it, meaning: with ALL the right notes (and this is what makes a huuuuge difference in LIVE recording). As to musicality, Martha Argerich who plays this already fast enough,but a bit over 3' or so, puts some exquisitely amazing sonorities and details,what makes a difference at the first sight,although this one breaths a kind of a very pecular music as well.
Just another intellectual approach, a speed not really being an issue , but rather a kind of energetic impact,I believe.

Re: Possibly some of the most impressive Prokofiev ever
#418356 01/09/09 09:18 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by dzinn:
There is no faster rendering of it, meaning: with ALL the right notes
Sorry but who really cares? Even if the point of music is to play it as fast as possible I doubt that Argerich is somehow unable to play it faster than this guy. I also have to agree that a lot is lost musically with all the speed and excessive pounding. Where's the melody? Or the rhythm for that matter?


Bach - WTC I in C major & C minor (BWV 846-847)
Mozart - Sonata K 282
Chopin - Polonaises Op 26
Schumann - Fantasiestücke Op 12
Re: Possibly some of the most impressive Prokofiev ever
#418357 01/09/09 09:29 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by dzinn:
There is no faster rendering of it, meaning: with ALL the right notes (and this is what makes a huuuuge difference in LIVE recording).
As I said above, Cyprien's is even faster (and it's also live), FWIW.


"I'm a concert pianist--that's a pretentious way of saying I'm unemployed at the moment."--Oscar Levant

http://www.youtube.com/kojiattwood
https://www.giftedmusicschool.org/
Re: Possibly some of the most impressive Prokofiev ever
#418358 01/10/09 12:07 AM
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Ugly, boring, mindless, a total waste of time. Why not just make a midi file and turn up the speed?

Re: Possibly some of the most impressive Prokofiev ever
#418359 01/10/09 02:17 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by akonow:
Even if the point of music is to play it as fast as possible I doubt that Argerich is somehow unable to play it faster than this guy.
No doubt at all. Argerich's tempi are perhaps 'too' fast (in a certain sense) for some folks, but they never represent the extreme limit of what she is capable of. She's nobody's fool. As James Levine once said: 'you can tell me it's too fast or too slow; you can tell me it's too soft or loud. But don't tell me I don't know the music'.

Otherwise, I'll give the OP's YouTube post a miss. It was too fast for me, that is all.


Jason
Re: Possibly some of the most impressive Prokofiev ever
#418360 01/10/09 07:46 AM
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It only comes off as a stunt. It makes no sense to play it that fast for any other reason IMHO. The piece is unintelligible at that speed.

Re: Possibly some of the most impressive Prokofiev ever
#418361 01/10/09 12:27 PM
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All of the points raised in a discussion are pertinent,some are excellent.And of course Argerich can play faster, and she does.That was not the issue.The issue was that with such a speed you cross over to the utterly un-physical dimension making any material representation virually senseless and since we are evolving in a highly sensitive,not to say spiritual,territory,this is what finally makes it interesting.Thus,we all agree upon that,though slower,she obviously plays it simply better,but having established these inalienable facts, I still do think that this is one of the most amazing Prokofiev ever smile

Re: Possibly some of the most impressive Prokofiev ever
#418362 01/10/09 12:53 PM
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I have to give credit to the pianist for an impressive technical display, but musically it was way too fast for my taste... It's marked precipitato - why people take that to mean "as fast as you possibly can play" escapes me...

While not known for Prokofiev, I really like Glenn Gould's performance of this piece. He takes a more modest approach to tempo in the last movement, but for me it is almost even more effective that way instead of just blasting away the audience with bravura. Link here


What you are is an accident of birth. What I am, I am through my own efforts. There have been a thousand princes and there will be a thousand more. There is one Beethoven.
Re: Possibly some of the most impressive Prokofiev ever
#418363 01/10/09 01:09 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by dzinn:
The issue was that with such a speed you cross over to the utterly un-physical dimension making any material representation virually senseless and since we are evolving in a highly sensitive,not to say spiritual,territory,this is what finally makes it interesting.
confused confused confused

Re: Possibly some of the most impressive Prokofiev ever
#418364 01/10/09 01:10 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by dzinn:
All of the points raised in a discussion are pertinent,some are excellent.And of course Argerich can play faster, and she does.That was not the issue.The issue was that with such a speed you cross over to the utterly un-physical dimension making any material representation virually senseless and since we are evolving in a highly sensitive,not to say spiritual,territory,this is what finally makes it interesting.Thus,we all agree upon that,though slower,she obviously plays it simply better,but having established these inalienable facts, I still do think that this is one of the most amazing Prokofiev ever smile
It's not Prokoviev.

Re: Possibly some of the most impressive Prokofiev ever
#418365 01/10/09 01:13 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by dzinn:
All of the points raised in a discussion are pertinent,some are excellent.And of course Argerich can play faster, and she does.That was not the issue.The issue was that with such a speed you cross over to the utterly un-physical dimension making any material representation virually senseless and since we are evolving in a highly sensitive,not to say spiritual,territory,this is what finally makes it interesting.
There are certain performances I can name which certainly push the limit of what I feel the human nervous system is capable of, and yet are completely satisfying on an artistic level as well.

This is not one of those performances, for me.


"I'm a concert pianist--that's a pretentious way of saying I'm unemployed at the moment."--Oscar Levant

http://www.youtube.com/kojiattwood
https://www.giftedmusicschool.org/
Re: Possibly some of the most impressive Prokofiev ever
#418366 01/10/09 01:27 PM
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Ah Glenn Gould! Chapeau!
The performance discussed here is techno, Gould's is ART: majestic, communicative, technically brilliant and imprinted with the performer's individuality!!
I am a fan of Argerich's interpretation, but it was wonderful to watch Gould. He certainly brings a different signature and perspective that further highlight the beauty of the music. It is particularly interesting - as a side note- to watch how torturous his hand movements can look at times, and how impeccably relaxed Argerich's hands are, especially the left hand.. Fluid steel!
As for the pianist subject of the thread, he is probably trying to make a point with this performance. Perhaps he has other recordings where his musicality is better highlighted?

Re: Possibly some of the most impressive Prokofiev ever
#418367 01/10/09 02:31 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
It only comes off as a stunt. It makes no sense to play it that fast for any other reason IMHO. The piece is unintelligible at that speed.
2 points :

This is a valid performance, and i hear every note, performing at this speed, musically, provides a refreshing experience.

Performances that push the limits of the human body are no more 'stunts' than Usain Bolt's 'superficial and empty' interpretations of the 100m and 200m sprints.


Simply rather marvellous.
Re: Possibly some of the most impressive Prokofiev ever
#418368 01/10/09 03:44 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Quite a Delight:
Quote
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
[b] It only comes off as a stunt. It makes no sense to play it that fast for any other reason IMHO. The piece is unintelligible at that speed.
2 points :

This is a valid performance, and i hear every note, performing at this speed, musically, provides a refreshing experience.

Performances that push the limits of the human body are no more 'stunts' than Usain Bolt's 'superficial and empty' interpretations of the 100m and 200m sprints. [/b]
Depends on what you mean by "valid". If you mean the tempo is "correct" in the sense it is within normaly accepted bounds of what the composer indicated, I would disagree. If you mean that the pianist truly feels that this is a correct interpretation, then maybe.

I would strongly disagree that running a race(where speed is the only objective)can be correctly compared to making music. Even if a composer writes "as fast as possible" would it make sense to play a piece twice or ten times what everyone else could play it at?

If one played Traumerai around one third faster(as in this Prokoviev performance) than virtually everyone else, do you think anyone would find it "valid" or "refreshing"?

I don't even find the performance exciting because of the speed because it is so bizzare. One of the most exciting performances I heard of this was by Grant Johanessen, and he actually played it somehwat more slowly than most. The motoric rhythmic intensity seemed even greater that way.

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